@bogdan said:

I think for the sake of our discussion and who knows maybe we can get some results from it, a new thread must be created to encourage people to sign in for this program to be started... a fresh thread and one that clearly asking for vsl notation maybe gets more attention.

  At least people from VSL will laugh or they 're gona take us seriously !!;)) 

Well, even if not to 'rally support', lol - I figure we can at least get more ideas or feature requests that in the end might help us. Ideally I would love the notation bit being the main focus... but with any feature request, it's easy to veer off-topic... SO, I created a new thread for this and made it as all-inclusive to a VSL DAW idea as possible. I also brought up the points we posted here for reference (and another divisi one I really like).

I posted "VSL DAW anyone?" under the Vienna Ensemble forum as I felt it would get more feedback there (more users), despite it really being approprate in both forums.

Hopefully if we continue this there and get more users something great can come of this. If I think of any other daw features I would like specifically useful for VSL, I'll add them as well. I think this way we can 1) make it more likely to happen but 2) make this big 'feature request' as applicable to all users (also making it more likely to happen).

-Sean

P.S. I hope no one minds me taking the liberty to post this. I wanted to happen just as much, so I just did it. [;)]

Remember also that it took them 2 whole years to release this new version, what the heck took so long to program? The Microsoft toolbar? Was it the recording of that great Sibelius orchestra?.. I mean we're stuck with this for another 2 years probably!.. Have you thought of that? Although I have always stayed away from Finale, I hope they revolutionize the industry with their next release - it's their chance to break the stale-mate now.

@Errikos said:

what the heck took so long to program? The Microsoft toolbar?

Agreed! And I'm someone who welcomes this change. I simply realize, with how MS developed the ribbon, that the interface is already built for them for the most part. Most 'programming' is already done for them. This in every respect was a rip off upgrade, with only one exception to me, 64 bit.

Hopeully with Sibelius 8 they get their act together. I'm not a Finale fan personally.

-Sean

@iscorefilm said:

Hopeully with Sibelius 8 they get their act together. I'm not a Finale fan personally.

-Sean

Me neither but audio feedback is so important to me that if Finale moves seriously ahead in that department I'll be switching despite the learning curve. Sibelius 8 will probably take as long as it took the real Sibelius [;)]

For me, I feel there is little learning curve... but I guess it's only because the ribbon 'jives' with me more. BUT, I agree... if AVID doesn't get things right and Finale did (or anyone else), with as much notation ability as those two have... any learning curve would be worth it.

-Sean

Does anybody have feedback on how is Sibelius 7 working with VSL libraries? I ordered the upgrade (which hasn't arrived yet) because it's 64-bit. While Sibelius worked pretty well with the smaller SE, I found VSL + Sibelius increasingly unreliable as I moved to the full libraries. IMO, being able to load more comprehensive sample sets would make this upgrade very useful even absent any other improvements.

(Yes, better still would be a notation program that only loaded the samples you needed ...)

It works no differently in playback or design. The only single difference is the location of the folder in appdata in windows. Someone just answered that in another thread, but I can't remember.

And yes, I'd love a fully implemented notation program.

-Sean

Hi,

Speaking of notation software in relationship to the VSL libraries, I notice that one specific program has been not introduced here: I am talking about Overture (4.1.5), made by Geniesoft.

In Windows XP, 32 bit, it serves like a VST host as well as notation software. Loading VI or VE into the VST rack is just a breeze. Apart from its capabilities as notation package it offers also precise and easy MIDI editing per track. Tempo adjustments can be made easily, there is also some tempo tapping issue, which works better than the odd Sibelius implementation.

Users can make their own 'expression' file, a very easy way to set up whatever keyswitch or CC controller (even combined!!) related to whatever articulation. This means for example that you can point an expression as 'a2' to a non divisi patch and 'solo' to a divisi patch. Simple as that and....much easier than the sound editor of Sibelius.

The GUI looks a little old fashioned maybe, but offers a very intuitive way of handling things. There isn't hardly any learning curve (like in Finale, Sibelius and also Notion).

So, for a combination of notation and MIDI editing this a really a fine piece of software IMHO. It doesn't have that glossy GUI of Sibelius, the prints are not so sublime also, but it feels a bit like heaven after years of frustration being able with only the TAB key to switch between scoring and MIDI-editing (there is also a nice piano roll window).

If I need a beautiful score I still use the Sibelius (I quitted Encore and Finale years ago already), or idem when I make a quick arrangement for one my ensembles for example. For very elaborated MIDI editing only, possibly combined with audio material I use a DAW like Cubase 6 (with its groundbreaking Expression Map 2, which surpasses version 1 in all respects). Sonar has neglected its MIDI users for years now, so it won't help you much further.

To be honest: working in Windows 7 (64 bit), there is some 'funny' issue to be mentioned using Overture (still 32 bit): it doesn't show any audio device and hence it refuses to select a VST folder.

So, actually this gives a new situation in which you can use your DAW or VST host (as Cantabile) directly with Overture, of course with a correct virtual midi in and out cabling.

There are rumours that a Overture 5 version will presented, in which this issue will be resolved maybe. Don't count on it however and just use the setup as described.

Shortly: readers of this post: why not give this a try? As long as Sibelius (and again also in this rather disappointing version 7), Finale and Notion don't offer a easy, decent and extended way of handling MIDI editing, it doesn't make sense to wait for another decennium. Admitted, there may be some issues that could make you return back to what you use now (just visit the forum on the Overture site and see what is going on there).Of course, also Overture isn't perfect, but the first perfect piece of music software has to be written yet, isn't it?

Personally, I think that VSL isn't going to produce any notation software in the (next) future. I would prefer actually, that the core activities remain focussed on sampling, sampler and sound. There is still some room for improvement*. So I am eagerly waiting for VI PRO 2 and MIR PRO by the way.Please note: I am not against the idea of a special new notation program of course in which VSL products will shine.

I hope that this post will inspire people to look further than what is well-known. Maybe superfluously, I don't have any relationship with whatever software producing company.

Best,
Erik

* It is not the right place for this topic, but here is my feature request in VI PRO2: randomizing EQ possibilities per cell (just as in real life). How about that?

Erik,

I installed a demo not too long ago and found nothing but problems. I found it's workflow and yes, it's gui, not to my liking. It has some good concepts, good ideas, etc. but it doesn't seem well built to me (at least, not enough to be a real player against the others).

I just found some posts on the Notion boards, from a moderator, saying that Notion hasn't been abandoned at all, but that they slowed development while they crank out an ipad app- that they would return to it afterward. With the release of a recent update 3.2, I am hoping that we'll see a Notion4 coming sometime. This could address what some of us have been concerned about. Just a thought anyway...

-Sean

Hi Sean,

Sorry to hear about those problems. Maybe is the demo version not always up to date, I don't know. I only had some stability issues sometimes in the XP (32bit) surrounding.

However, maybe Notion 4 will be of some importance: Notion 3 has many fine features, but it will be a long way towards what is at stake here, in my opinion.

Erik

 Well I tried Sibelius 7, and well, theres some things I did like, but the sound was just the same as Sibelius 6 and I was not too thrilled. I guess if you compose music for games it is useful, but I try to compose for a real orchestra. I went back to Notion 3 using VSL for now. Hopefully when Notion 4 is released it will be more intuitive and have a great interface.  I am not soo pleased with Sibelius 7, I feel like it was a bit watered down with added features.

@Jgcomposer said:

 Well I tried Sibelius 7, and well, theres some things I did like, but the sound was just the same as Sibelius 6 and I was not too thrilled. I guess if you compose music for games it is useful, but I try to compose for a real orchestra. I went back to Notion 3 using VSL for now. Hopefully when Notion 4 is released it will be more intuitive and have a great interface.  I am not soo pleased with Sibelius 7, I feel like it was a bit watered down with added features.

How can something be watered down, if it has added features? That just makes no sense.

DG

 There is really nothing about it that made no sense DG. I'm basically saying that Sibelius 7 had some new features that seemed water down to me. If you still don't get it don't bother making an arguement. Nothing really to dwell upon when I am just making my own assumption about the software.

@Jgcomposer said:

 Well I tried Sibelius 7, and well, theres some things I did like, but the sound was just the same as Sibelius 6 and I was not too thrilled.....

If you "tried" the Sibelius 7 demo, then you did have the same Sibelius 6 sounds, because the demo version does not give you the 34Gb sound library.  You will find in the new library that articulations are now complete sounds and not just dynamic/time variations of a single sample set.

The biggest issue with Sibelius 7 is that it's GUI is so radically different, and that takes some getting used to, but nothing has beern removed from the program,  you just may not be able to locate things initially until you know where they are on the ribbon. 

 I am not using the demo I am using the full version installed, and no the sound quality is not better. If it was I wouldn't be using vienna symphononic library.   Maybe thats the problem vienna sounds are soo far superior that I expect the sounds of sibelius to be just that. And yes I know GUI is different layout but thats not the problem. That 34Gig library sounds horrible. And the only thing I liked was the implementation of the Musicxml export feature. The constant crashing of Sibelius 7 on an I7 12 Gig ddr3 seems to be the main issue for me, and it seems a little slow. If 12 gigs of ram is not enough for this program I don't know what is.  I load 15 instruments through VSL in Cubase and have no issues of laggy choppiness, and the new patch for Sibelius 7 did nothing to solve the issue.

Personally I find a lot of the sounds from the new library to be quite good and miles better than GPO which just lengthened or shortened the samples it had rather than offering say, staccato, whole tone or half tone trills, coll legno, snap pizz, things like that.

But c'mon, is it fair to compare a built in library with VSL's full set which exceeds 500 gb?  No!  I love VSL but don't use it too much with notation programs because I find the qualities that make it so good are lacking when interfaced with Sibelius or even Notion.  I'd rather go with the built in set or EWQLSO Gold because it's a little lighter on the CPU.  VSL shines when you use it with DAWs like DP or Logic or even PT.  It's expressive beyond measure but this kind of programming needs the finesse of a DAW and not a notation program IMO.

So, really it's not fair to compare the Sibelius library with VSL.  If you want to compare it to NOtion's built in library, then okay.  They are comparable and I find some of Notion's performance playback of articulations to be more evolved than Sibelius 7 which still feels like it's working out the bugs...but Sibelius is a far better notation program than Notion will ever be, and that's coming from a Notion user since ver1.

 Sibelius 7 is not without it's issues (possible understatement of the day), I have 24Gb of RAM and it crashes still, so I don't believe it's a memory issue. Actually, I have found Sibelius 7 is generally OK, if you work on a song that was created in Sibelius 7, I find it crashes if you continue with a file that was created in a previous version (V6.2 in my case).

Sibelius 7 sounds are a lot better than Sibelius 6 Essential sounds (and will be better once they get the dynamic levels a bit more balanced), but neither is anywhere near VSL.

I have never found a workable way to get my VSL library to work in Sibelius. I have the complete VSL super package, and it is just too unmanageable to work in Sibelius.  I guess the SE version works OK in Sibelius?

I would really like to know how to get my VSL library to work in Sibelius (remember, I don't have SE), I did set up my own template once, but it took an eternity to just start up.

 You guys are maybe right, I might being too hard on Sibelius 7. I just expect it to be all great but not everything new comes out problem free. But yes  with VSL Library nothing compares. I just love the fluidity of sounds coming from VSL. I am just surprised no one has mastered what VSL can do for such a long time. But 599 dollars for Sibelius and only $475 for special edition from VSL, you expect sibelius to give a bit more.

Well you still cannot compare by prices.  Sibelius first and foremost is a notation library.  VSL is a straight out sample library meant to be used in a DAW or notation program.  Most of its R&D goes to this and not the sound set.  Jon Loving has been doing some great work on sound sets for 3rd party libraries.  However, I fear that regardless of your RAM and processor, the sheer # of samples and articulations that the average orchestral composer needs is demanding on any computer system.  That said, when I load up a Classical Orchestra with the Sibelius sounds, I look at my activity monitor on my Mac and it shows about 5 gbs taken up for the sounds.  I have 15 gb so it's not even close to using up my RAm and I do also find it sluggish.  But I find the same with Notion or Finale as well when using their libraries.