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Hi Hicks,
Thanks!
Well, I deliberately didn't pay much attention to a more humanized version (timing), so you are right that it could sound better and more lively. I choose for this setup because I didnt want to use something else than the offered MIDI version on the site of AudioImpressions.
Concerning the used patches. First of all I made a new version yesterday with the full VSL orchestra version (which I didn't have at the moment I made the Appassionata version). Using Cubase 6 with its expression map, combined with two CC lanes in this case (CC3 and 4), makes it really a breeze to create a fast mock-up. Personally I don't like keyswitching very much, but prefer Program Changes. This explains the rather rudimentary use of patches maybe of the Appassionata version: it was made in Sonar, that allows of course PrCh, but with quite some effort.
Back to the patches: I used only 6 matrices: Perf Leg All, Perf Trill, Short Notes combi, Dynamics (only pf-sfz-sffz), Perf Rep and a matrix with tremolo, pizz and col legno (CC3 horizontal change, CC4 vertical, where needed).
So I did not use any perf spiccato BTW, just a selection of the short notes (combi).
I noticed in the past that using the perf repetition for spiccato results in a kind of quite unrhythmical sequence, is there something wrong with the attack in the alternating samples maybe??), so that's why I usually take from the short notes matrix.
I only implemented the Flux SPAT verb, no compression or EQ-ing or what so ever. Maybe a second mic in the HS would have been needed for a directer sound (loading samples in HS takes some time and much RAM however, hence this choice).
I will consider a new version for the App's based on the Orchestra version (just changing patches in this case), for the sake of an honest comparison.
Erik, did you use MIR for the Vienna Demo?
I first got into Vienna Samples just and only because they are dry, and I can use them as I want, but Expecially with MIR.
I think MIR is a must for using Vienna, so if you didn't, your work value is zero.[8-|]
@mplaster said:
Wow, thanks for taking the time to do this, Erik.
Firstly, i have to eliminate LASS. I am sure LASS shines on certain things, but on *this* demo and *this* type of music, it's not too successful, in my opinion.
That leaves me with VSL versus Hollywood Strings.
In this demos, to me, the Hollywood Strings sounded like it fit perfectly in a soundtrack; had a very "cinematic" feel to it. It's odd for me to try to reconcile how something "musical" can have it's own descriptive character as "cinematic" or "perfect-for-film." But in that respect i think Hollywood Strings succeeded.
As for VSL, the VSL version of the demo, to me, sounded the most like an actual real orchestra; meaning, there was an "essence" about it that felt mostly as if i were in a concert hall listening to it. I am going to assume that the reverb, placement, effects, etc. were all identical for each track (aside from LASS's self positioning). And therefore i am going to conclude that the fact that HS sounds more "cinematic" and VSL sounds more "real orchestra" is not an anomaly of different mixing/reverb settings. And therefore, from that, i am going to conclude that the difference is inherent in the actual sample data, the amount or articulation content, and the playability of each library's sample set.
Therefore, in MY opinion, VSL takes the gold, HS the silver, and LASS the bronze.
Although i must concede that at that point much of it comes down to what the user him-or-herself is really looking for. As always, different strokes for different folks. To me, HS would seem to be more appropriate for someone doing video game soundtracks, or Hollywood-esque scores. And VSL would seem to fit better the user who is trying to imitate a real orchestra for music and song. And please dont take that out of context. I do not at all mean to imply that Video Game and film composers are any less musical than the rest of us. There are good and bad in both film scoring and music/song-writing. I simply mean to illustrate a difference in not only what the composer himself wants to sound like, but in what the consumer/recipient/audience is expecting to hear in whichever media they are experiencing.
Anyhow, awesome work Erik. Thanks for taking the time to produce these and let us hear them!
- michael
Hi Tralen,
You are right for the first Appasionata version: I removed it, it just doesn't do right to this library.
Furthermore I have made a second reverbed Orchestra version, now with Origami (spatializing) and QL Spaces (EWQL).Nice comparison also with a slightly longer verb in the QL Spaces version.
I haven't been able to do a decent one in MIR yet, but that will undoubtly follow within a few days, so "stay tuned!".
Also for me was the Chamber version surpringly good!
Hey Erik,
This is perfect timing for me. I've been looking at all the strings libraries recently.
Appassionata2 is probs my favourite as far as overall balance and sound. (fast bits aside) Feels really smooth. What was the reverb/stage on that? VSL Standard Orchestra is also nice actually and punchy in comparison. Gotta be TOP 2
HS is kinda nice, bit bright maybe and I would have to do some work on that and it's basically whether you want the "Hollywood sound" out of a box or not really. This thing looks hugh and demanding and that's got to be a real consideration. As well as the fact that VSL stuff is much more tweekable/reliable compared to PLAY.
Some good deals on HS/HB Gold combined at the moment though. VSL would do well to do something similar.
Paul
Well, it is demanding. I admit to not using it much until I got a Gold license, as the Diamond was a bit of a bloated sluggish pig, not to put too fine a point on it. It does sound great, if pitchy. In fact, my main complaint with HS and LASS is the thing so many people are saying is great, which is the fact that they are pitchy. I say this in response: it doesn't sound more human because of that - it sounds more like you got the "B" players to do your session. As a side thought - maybe it's not a lack of tuning problems that make one's strings sound fake...
My general feeling about EW is that their libraries are ambitious, often very good-sounding, inspiring, and sometimes incompletely programmed or recorded. One needs to look no further than the QLSO to find, for example, curiously- and inconsistently-articulated attacks on the 6-Horn ensemble or three-trumpet ensemble, or abrupt cutoffs on releases in many of their titles, SD and SDII having notable examples. Admittedly, I have never attempted to record a giant library using a large number of musicians before, and perhaps it is beyond the scope of any reasonable-priced library to have all perfect performances without making the library a losing proposition money-wise - after all, look at what you get when you buy QLSO Platinum (or Gold, even.) - pretty impressive. It's still pretty great to be able to drop something in that sounds mostly there.
But what I can say is that VSL seems to suffer far less from tuning and articulation issues than any others - and also that I've had a great deal of success making VSL sound satisfyingly "Hollywood" with the right ambiences and positioning, maybe a hair of layering, and maybe the occasional bit of distortion (from Devil-Loc or the like) - whereas HS is HS, pretty much. If you get a lot of the VSL strings, you can get a lot of different sounds out of them. I'll never forget the first time I took something written with App strings and converted it to the Chamber stuff - the Chamber Strings are very agile and easy to direct. It made the App strings feel like I was driving a city bus by comparison. Not that they're bad at all! Just that when the sound of more players is involved... Anyway, it would be nice to have more, shall we say, florid playing options in VSL than are currently offered, but that often seems to come at the expense of malleability in programming. Though if anyone can make it work, maybe it'll be the folks from Vienna.
@dragsquares said:
I say this in response: it doesn't sound more human because of that - it sounds more like you got the "B" players to do your session.
That is exactly my opinion. Mentioning the issue on the forum of Audiobro didn't help at all, on the contrary: there are some LASS believers who really think that you first have to make 'music' before complaining about patches that are fully out ot of tune. A mock-up of whatever piece with only the First Chair patches gives a ridiculous result, not even on a level of B-players, it just lacks any level. Combining FC, A,B and C makes the pain less, but still audible.
And...you are right on this also: HS is a bit (sometimes more than a bit) out of tune in some patches.
On the contrary: with VSL, besides the abundance of articulations, also this element is in hands of the users of VI Pro with all kinds and levels of what I call "dis-tuning".
Does anybody have listened to the original DVZ results (35 and 70- players) BTW?
Nice job. I prefer the VSL Orchestral version. I’m not sure that the score calls for this, but I could imagine a mix of Chamber and Orchestral sections in this piece.
Overall very nice, and there are (at least) a few moments of truly exceptional programing !
Yes, but VSL without MIR is like a Porsche without a blonde.
(Forgive me ladies! By the way, I prefer Ferrari and brunettes [8-|])
I worked on a piece the other day that used CineBrass but needed some good strings. I own HS but frankly I don't use it. Too much hassle and I need something that just works.. So I turned to Appassionata Strings. Done. Perfect. Love the legato. Love assigning the mod wheel to velocity x-fade. Everything works. I did a Herrmann styled piece a while back with CineBrass and I also used the Orchestral String trills from VSL. What delighted me is that the harder the velocity, the faster the trill (at least it seems this way). Briliant.
Can't wait for VI PRO 2.0
Hi Fiery,
I own HS but frankly I don't use it. Too much hassle and I need something that just works..
Agreed, but in Cubase 6 with its expression maps, in which articulations/patches can be assigned to channels (!!), the hassle is over, at least if you meant that. In all other DAW's it is a real nightmare I guess.
I will check your trills*velocity asap!
Also for me: eager to getting to know VI PRO 2.0!
Personally there are elements of different ones I like. The App version is good but too dry for my tastes but the detail is nice...although the basses always sound muddy to me though. The HS versions I like till it tries to do the TREM parts and the detail is lost. This would sound much better with the stage or a close/main mic mix. The LASS would work if you panned everything and brought up the verb...a little too dry to me.
Despite those comments thanks for doing this..well done!
Hollywood Strings Diamond performs very well when you run it from a SSD drive. I have two SSD drives as RAID 0 (software) and HS performs extremely well on those disks. Also the recent 2.0 update as well as PLAY 3 that just got released makes it really fast to use (again if you are running it from a SSD). I have to say that the fact is that there isn't anything even close to Hollywood Strings on the market right now when it comes down to a true "Hollywood" John Williams type sound.@dragsquares said:
I admit to not using it much until I got a Gold license, as the Diamond was a bit of a bloated sluggish pig, not to put too fine a point on it.
