Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
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  • Isn't VSL just one step from its own...

    ... Digital Audio Workstation?...

    If you think about it, VE PRO is the mixer, Vienna Suite is the effects bank, MIR is the space/IR controller, VI PRO is the player, and of course VSL is the monumental instruments-bank.

    All that's missing is the sequencer ('Arrange' and 'Piano Roll' pages) with the necessary automation tools etc. Is it really that much missing? It seems like a natural convergence to me... 

    A dedicated to Symphonic Music (for once!) D.A.W. built from the ground up for such a use, with tailor-made and "musical" presets, expression maps, automation/humanization tools, most importantly, some ingenious integration between notation and MIDI, in short, the works! And you're so very close with all the software you've been producing for the last few years. Plus, most of it is also a host for other companies' audio products already...

    Did I mention it should be on the Mac platform first? [;)]

    How about it?...

  •  This is a great idea.   In fact, it seems a natural progression with the increasing development of audio that VSL has undertaken - from the primal First Edition - pure sampling under the then-current sampling environment - to Vienna Instruments and Ensemble, which allow perfected selection and playing of articulations under conditions suited specifically to orchestral music, and now to MIR and the Suite which process samples in a perfect way for orchestral samples. 

    so now is only needed a DAW that is tweaked and programmed with the same innovative approach, tailored for orchestral sound instead of generic audio.  Yeah!

  • I support this idea. Heck-I've been a Logic user since the very beginning - but I'd go for it for orchestral only scores in a heart beat.

    And better yet-integrate the best notation software editor, (something like Sibelius) into it.

  • Yes, I also thought this would be a clincher. An integration of Sibelius, Finale, NOTION, or perhaps an agreement could be struck with a less corporate platform like NoteAbility Pro, Lilypond, etc.

    The point is that a fully integrated professional notation editor could take say NOTION's notions many steps further. For example, the DAW could conceivably take the composer's performance and the loaded matrices/samples triggered and score the performance appropriately (legato slurs where legato samples were used, crescendi where Velocity Crossfades occurred, octave-runs notated by the relevant patches, sul pont., marcato, en dehors would affect the MIR settings, literally hundreds of possibilities), where minor editing would be required for the procurement of a proper conductor's score and parts.

    And more importantly, vice-versa. I know that NOTION is on the right track there, but they have stopped updating their software for a long time now, and frankly it's not Sibelius notationally, which on the other hand is no pic-nic with the sound-sets, house-styles, and dictionaries. I believe a much more musical and user-friendly all-in-one program would answer a lot of prayers and save huge time in the long run... Another example would be that Automation or mixer changes would update elements in the score as well if relevant. 

    Also, we would have to consider the all in-house advantages regarding overall performance (as happens with Apple software development).

    Anyone from the programming wings of the company would care to comment?

  • I’m a Logic user for audio/demos. And Finale for the scores & parts for the recording. There is lots of time lost in preparing the midi to export to Finale. I’m sure a lot of you know what I mean. On rhythmically difficult stuff (7:4, 9:8, grace notes) it’s faster imo to start over in finale.

    What is anyone’s experience with Protools export to Sibelius feature? Anybody using Notion and really happy?

    If Finale (or Sibelius) could give us a piano roll (with flexible link-unlink features) and also expression lanes, that would be great. And if VSL could do it from scratch, why not? 

  • All excellent ideas here IMHO.  What a time saver a well integrated system would be (at least for my orchestral work) I have tried NOTION and didnt mch care for t TBO.

    A program that is well integrated so that you could be in a piano bar and entering a dynamic and have that dynamic follow over and place itself on the score would be lovely.

  • Yes, there's plenty there that will facilitate the workflow and allow impossible hitherto flexibility. Can you imagine scoring for orchestra and suddenly replace a whole staff full of expressions and articulations from, say flutes to oboes, and just by pressing 'Play' all flute matrices would be replaced by the relevant oboe ones... Sure it would take some time, and some people have monster machines with everything loaded so they would just move a region from one track to the other, but the possibilities are endless here.

  • What would be important is that it be a pure VSL system, just like MIR or Vienna Ensemble, designed specifically to use the articulations of the library in the most efficient way possible.  The generic approach of other companies trying to integrate anybody's sample library is what causes all the difficulty, so VSL could solve this by making all aspects of the interface exactly suited to its own particular libraries (though possibly allowing other VSTs as with MIR Pro).   

    this brings up what I find most annoying about DAWs in general - how everything is generic, and as a result most of what you are looking at on a given screen (and is in your way) is not going to be used.  If VSL created a system for orchestral sound with a MIDI composition module that would exclude unused audio processing tools during the composing/orchestating process and also have a heavy-duty MIR type sound environment that could then be added, it would solve the problem of wading through AUDIO menus while one is working only with MIDI.  None of the other companies seem to realize that MIDI involves essentially a two-stage process - pure MIRI composition and THEN audio mixing/processing/post production.

  • All very good points there and I'm sure there are many more. I'm so puzzled at the lack of participation in this post; usually someone writes something like "why not a sarusophone overtone sample yet?" and people flock to contribute. Is the idea of a VSL DAW so uninteresting for everybody? No wonder the management hasn't bothered to comment on it. Look at all the attention this NOTION idea has gotten. Oh well...

    Maybe if I were to propound the launch of another VSL SE for "special" composers, sporting a fantastic new VI SE player which would seamlessly collate disparate canned film-like cues using matrices and controllers - no Sibelius or keyboard required people! - ooooooooh the response.....

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    @Errikos said:

    All very good points there and I'm sure there are many more. I'm so puzzled at the lack of participation in this post;


    I suspect the reason for lack of participation, is that the chances of a VSL "Sibelius/Cubase" beater is somewhat unlikely to ever happen. In fact I am sure it is safe to say, it will never happen.  Cubase is where it is at today, because it has evolved for 25 years.

    Maybe a proper sound set for Sibelius would be the answer, because at the moment you still have to select all the sounds you want to use, but a proper complete sound set would have all the sounds there ready, with all the articulations ready to go. 

  • I don't know; like I pointed out originally VE PRO and Vienna Suite are already there, as are MIR and VI PRO. There's not much in my admittedly inexpert opinion, that Cubase or Logic has on top of that except the 'Arrange' and 'Piano Roll' pages with automation, quantization and tempo track, I mean what more do we need? After all we are talking about a DAW that caters exclusively  to symphonic/film-music composers. Throw in the QuickTime Player and synchronization and that's it.

    The one difficult thing VSL really have to tackle is notation and its integral functionality, and again like I said, they don't have to re-invent the wheel there either; they can come to an agreement with an already established platform. It doesn't have to be Sibelius (nice if it were but probably not due to Avid) or Finale as long as the platform is as sophisticated and intuitive notationally, and fully integrated into the DAW. I believe most of the work has been done, as I believe that corporately speaking, this natural convergence will occur in the future anyway, if VSL doesn't do it, then perhaps East-West ('Spaces' is out already), DVZ, or someone else. It would be great for us anyway.

  • Also, to some extent MIR is already doing this idea as a mixing host, and as Errikos pointed out, with VI most of the things that previously were exclusively possible with DAWs are done by the VSL software. 

  • Thanx for pointing me here, Errikos! I knew that the topic had to have been raised before!

  • notation per se is never going to be adequate for timing, rhythm, durations. Notion 3 has decided to go for piano roll handling of the time element.  there's your paradigm.

    I would have to get pretty imaginative to guess how this is supposed to be right around the corner for VSL.

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    @William said:

    Also, to some extent MIR is already doing this idea as a mixing host, and as Errikos pointed out, with VI most of the things that previously were exclusively possible with DAWs are done by the VSL software. 

    your definition of 'most' and mine are apparently quite different.

    ie., there is an argument here that a DAW that does what seems like a whole lot less is something VSL ought to provide, for a very narrow niche market. The less features, the less competitive sure seems like the lay of the land in the DAW biz.

    It's never going to happen.

  • I was referring to a "perfect" world where everything would be as seamless as the music going from Mozart's head - to the manuscript - to the ensemble players - to the audience's ears. However the first step towards that utopia - which is for VSL to complete a DAW environment (as we have today from Logic, Cubase, etc.) for their own product - is very feasible to my lay-mind. Why VSL instead of Logic et al? Because those DAWs are conceived and structured with the pop-head in mind (drums, loops, distortions, etc.), whereas the VSL offering could be the first DAW to cater to the symphonic composers' needs and requirements. In my relatively uneducated opinion, with MIR, VE, VI, and VS, they are most of the way there already. They can leave the integrated notator out of it for now.

    And they are already catering to a specialized market, I am not suggesting they compete with Pro Tools for all the MTV rappers. I'm guessing however, that most of 'serious' and Hollywood musicians would at least include this equipment in their arsenal. VSL, if nothing else, brings out wonderful products. If they made this DAW, I'm sure it would be very lucrative to a lot of professionals, as well as to many a deluded hopeful.

  • you have a very precious specialized idea of what a symphonic composer does that's oh-so-very-different than what someone who degrades themselves with drums and distortion does... that ghettoizes either. Music is music. DAWs are made to do some things which aren't for you. The reasons for that are market-driven. VSL is a niche market that seems to you to target to someone resembling you. I'm just saying, in all likelihood the market share is far too small.

    I am using many drums by VSL, and one of my go-to distortions is in Vienna Suite, the Exciter.

    Stravinsky was ravaged by critics for his emphasis on drums in Le Sacre was he not? Fistfights ensued, even. Nearly one hundred years ago though. Reactionaries still rank like this to make themselves feel superior to something they don't follow?

  • Missionwise, I am floating somewhere between the rappers and the movie composers. 

    When I "get my feet wet" with the VSL stuff, I would love to be able to bring some acoustic tracks, (vocals, live percussion, acoustic guitars etc), into the VE/VI Pro environment, complete with the Vienna suite, and mix them there with some VSTIs.

    Even if the DAW doesn't record audio, being able to do ALL the MIDI stuff, render it to audio, edit the audio, would be sweet!

    In terms of competing with others, this would be for a different type of musician. I wouldn't say that Live, Reason, Fruity Loops are trying to compete with anyone, they seem to do things differently. The people use buy them do so because they suit their way of working.

    This app that we are discussing would be doing thins to suit the way we like to work.

    My GY$0.02.

  •  > Notion 3 has decided to go for piano roll handling of the time element

    Where does this information come from?

    Dorico, Notion, Sibelius, StudioOne, Cubase, Staffpad VE Pro, Synchon, VI, Kontakt Win11 x64, 64GB RAM, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, August Forster 190
  • @civilization 3: Are you comparing yourself and the gazillion other droves of beat-mongers to Stravinsky?!?!?! He was maybe the most original of all composers (with Wagner and Ives), and you compare him to a whole sub-culture numbering hundreds of millions tapping on their mice?!?! And you compare me to the reactionaries in the Paris audience?? Why? Are you composing things that are so groundbreaking that my ignorant ears would rebel against that kind of new greatness? Prove it then. Post something here or PM me some of your stuff so I can begin a fist-fight with myself. Don't start talking again about things you don't understand - stick to computers and studio matters which you seem to know. It wasn't the use of drums by the way that riled the crowds back then...

    What does "music is music" mean? How is that statement useful or meaningful? Do you listen to a lot of F. Kalkbrenner then? Why not? Music is music isn't it? Why do you have personal preferences if that's the case?

    In short, had VSL (and similar companies) never existed, you would still be able to realize your music through computers. A lot of us wouldn't be. And I don't think the modern symphonic market is so nichey. Not as long as movies with orchestral scoring are being made.