@Astro said:

I wish there was some program that had the midi and audio capabilities of a DAW and the notational sophistication of Sibelius! 

Yeah!  And how about this: seamlessly incorporates the attributes of both VI (Pro), VE (Pro), and MIR flawlessly.  That would just be soooo darn peachy wouldn't it! 

[akward pause as all eyes turn to the VSL Team]

As it stands now, there just isn't one around.  As far as your conundrum is concerned Michael I find Sonar to be quite useful in many ways.  I agree, however, that the notation side is severely lacking.  I had great expectations with 8.5 but it's no better the 7.  I should have known better.  I actually e-mailed and called Cakewalk concerning this before 8.5's release but the response I received from Cakewalk and other DAW manufacturers is that there just isn't enough of a market to incorporate a sophisticated detailed scoring application that integrates with the MIDI side of the house the way orchestral composers desire.  So to that end I wish Sonar would just omit the notation application completely in upcomming versions.   It's just dead weight as far as I'm concerned.

As somebody mentioned earlier though, I just score in Finale, export it as a MIDI file then import into Sonar later.  Since all of my templates are set up in VE I load everything up and it all goes pretty quick.  It's just a matter of programming keyswitches, minor editing here and there, then recording.  Depending on the passage, I'll play some stuff in myself.  But I know how you feel.

Jasensmith - thanks for your commiseration.  I'm at least glad to know I am not alone! I am not at all surprised to hear that they feel there is not enough of a market for what we were talking about.  I'm sure it is a pretty small fraction!

Mike

I am a long term user of Sonar too - and have finally lost patience with the team at Cakewalk.  I love the workflow and the great audio facilities of Sonar, but the midi editing and the tempo map editing are absolutely woeful.  I have repeatedly requested enhancements to these aspects of Sonar, but they really aren't interested.  I use 8.5 at the moment, and will not go any further until they improve things. X1 is a joke - just a cosmetic upgrade at the moment, with no real fundamental improvements.

The score side of things don't bother me, as most DAWS are pretty rubbish at that when compared with Sibelius. I have started using Cubase 6, and it is far superior to Sonar in terms of its midi editing and tempo map flexiblity.  I am finding some of the workflow a bit clunky - but that is probably me having to learn a new DAW. The expression map facility makes switching articulations in VSL a breeze - when you have worked out how it all works.  I am looking forward to exploring Note expression too.....

I don't yet use Cubase in rewire mode - I tend to write in sibelius and export the midi.  This works well on the whole, but you do need to be careful what you export if you want a 'clean' import to the DAW I am finding.  Pauses, for instance, seem to cause havoc with the position of notes in bars in the DAW for example - and seems to cause real problems if the pause is in one part and not another......

I think you are right in your opinion of Sonar, and you can't go wrong with Cubase.  If you are a teacher or student you can get a very good price on it too.....

My son will be starting a Music Tech BTEc in september where he will have to use Logic - so I guess I will have chance to see what Logic has to offer soon as well....

I would recommend embracing the piano roll as a way of life, for a contemporary composer, and losing some of the middle man of naming and notating. The completely quantized timing in a notation program is never going to come out very human-sounding; it's a whole lot less hassle and time expended once you've got into the piano roll as a methodology. You have an idea, you record it in real time and you're on the road to getting well.

I wouldn't hold my breath as per a combination of high end notation and good midi editing in one application. It isn't a priority in marketing I think, and it might be a real dodgy idea to try and code.

OTOH, I have had to output music for players to read from my weird projects and I found Cubase to be surprisingly apt and intelligent as a translator to its score editor for my midi. Very surprising.

Oh yeah, the tempo editing is a dream come true. This is where it's at, the tempo track handling. Cubase resolves @ up to 4000 pulses per quarter note, and a tempo marking can be inserted at any point (when zoomed all the way in). Tempi and time sigs can be cut and pasted at will. You can 'warp' the timeline to fit what you have performed or written, so I worry about time sigs and barlines only as I need to. Bars can be inserted down to 1/64...

I am also pretty happy with Cubase (5.5) Scoring Editor. There are some things which are slightly annoying (e.g.: Audio Feedback is quite useless), also Slur Handling could be much better, but for what I am doing it is more then sufficient

Rgds

Gabriel

@rverne10 said:

Steinberg has no trial versions

FYI, Steinberg now offers a 30 day fully functioning trial for Cubase8

I also do all my notation inside of Logic (from Lead sheet and Band to Bigband to Orchestra). Sibelius is more advanced in terms of automatic layout (which can save a lot of time) and special score styles etc. but for me it's just faster using one single DAW from composing and arranging to production. Logic works with Bravura and Jazz fonts and both look great when printed. Never had a problem to write what I want. Might be different if you write avantgarde stuff which needs more graphic elements.

Logic has an interactive score window. Notation works in realtime when recording midi. Every change made in other editors mirrors in the score and vice versa (in opposite to Cubase where the score doesn't change when editing notes in the piano roll). I have Cubase and Sibelius but I just don't use it. I'm too much used to the interactive editors in Logic.

@Saxer said:

I also do all my notation inside of Logic (from Lead sheet and Band to Bigband to Orchestra). Sibelius is more advanced in terms of automatic layout (which can save a lot of time) and special score styles etc. but for me it's just faster using one single DAW from composing and arranging to production. Logic works with Bravura and Jazz fonts and both look great when printed. Never had a problem to write what I want. Might be different if you write avantgarde stuff which needs more graphic elements.

Logic has an interactive score window. Notation works in realtime when recording midi. Every change made in other editors mirrors in the score and vice versa (in opposite to Cubase where the score doesn't change when editing notes in the piano roll). I have Cubase and Sibelius but I just don't use it. I'm too much used to the interactive editors in Logic.

I have Logic too but have never been able to really successfully integrate VSL because of the lack of expression/articulation control.  How do you handle this?  I wish there were similar expression maps for Logic that VSL writes for Cubase.  If that were easier I'd probably dive deeply into Logic to learn the Notation features.

Michael

@mjmyers60 said:

I have Logic too but have never been able to really successfully integrate VSL because of the lack of expression/articulation control.  How do you handle this?  I wish there were similar expression maps for Logic that VSL writes for Cubase.  If that were easier I'd probably dive deeply into Logic to learn the Notation features.

there are meanwhile a few Logic X alternatives to Cubase expression maps by third party developers.

http://www.audiogrocery.com/a.g_toolkit_pro.htm

http://www.skiswitcher.com

http://www.babylonwaves.com

@mjmyers60 said:

I have Logic too but have never been able to really successfully integrate VSL because of the lack of expression/articulation control.  How do you handle this?  I wish there were similar expression maps for Logic that VSL writes for Cubase.  If that were easier I'd probably dive deeply into Logic to learn the Notation features.

there are meanwhile a few Logic X alternatives to Cubase expression maps by third party developers.

http://www.audiogrocery.com/a.g_toolkit_pro.htm

http://www.skiswitcher.com

http://www.babylonwaves.com

Saxer, Thanks, I've looked at Audiogrocery but it seems very complicated.  I want to make music, not write code!  Have you tried any of these?  Others have experience?

Michael

@mjmyers60 said:

 

Saxer, Thanks, I've looked at Audiogrocery but it seems very complicated.  I want to make music, not write code!  Have you tried any of these?  Others have experience?

Michael

you have to watch the videos and it takes a bit of time. but you have to do it just once for your template. and it's not coding, it's just writing the instrument and articulation names into this tables. but when it works it's much easier than keyswitches.

@Michael C. said:

I currently use Sonar 8.5 as my DAW. 

version 8.5 is somehow archaic, new Sonar Platinum is in much better shape. In all areas instead of Staff editor and VST3 is now also fully integrated (for use with multiple MIDI in ports in VE). But if you are going to create serious partitions, you need Sibelius or Finale. Cubase staff options is not enough either.