@Astro said:

I would love to find a DAW that had more flexibility when editing in "staff" view 

I would steer away, based on my  somewhat limited experience, from notation programs; unless you have a great need for all the extremes of nuanced  scoring. Working with  Cubase 5, I found it has a few limitations in scoring, (awkward support for multiple time signatures or many time signature changes, the GUI score window seems to get confused but underneath the system does track the changes) but it should be given serious consideration. Also, when composing and editing first in the Midi editior and then switching and working into the score, you may have to push the scoring features to the max to make the score look right, again,  things work out very well in the end, just requires great amounts of patience and perseverance. Steinberg has no trial versions, but you can download the manual for version 6 from the website. I have found that the printing somewhat limited too as Cubase can't seem to print to larger pages than 8.5 x 11.5 (in)

Having said that, the finished product will rival anything, I mean all commercially available that I have seen ( a very large sampling as I was in the business at one time), printed products on the market.

Just to clarify...I compose using Sibelius.  My score are pretty complex - lots of caning meters and lots of complicated notation.  I don't need my DAW to be that sophiticated, but I would certainly like something that looks and functions better than Sonar.  To make acurate sounding mock-ups, I have to enter everything in to Sonar in real time and then edit various parameters to acheive the most realistic sound.  I wish there was some program that had the midi and audio capabilities of a DAW and the notational sophistication of Sibelius! 

Thank you all for your suggestions.  It sounds like Cubase might be a better match for me.  I have used Logic on a MAC nd it is quite nice, but I do most of my work on a PC as it give me more flexibility in the what programs I can use.  There are other things about PCs I prefer to MACs, thoug  think both platforms have their strengths.

Maybe Sibelius will incorporate midi editing some day and that will solve my problems!

I am actually so picky about the end-result of my mock ups that I export the final edited midi as audio tracks and then apply a ton of envelope editing to gets a realistic and finish as possible.  It yeilds great results, but takes tons of time.

Oh well, it beats having to deal with live musicians who need to be paid and fed!  :-)

Thanks,

Michael

@julian said:

Hi Michael,

This probably won't help as I guess using Sonar you are on a PC? But Logic Studio can create sophisticated scores suitable to print and go straight to orchestra recordings - We produced the complete Olympic Opening and Closing ceremonies with scores printed from Logic involving 2 symphony orchestras, choirs and a multitude of other stuff it was quick easily read by the orchestra and not a single interpretation issue. Then we went on to edit, mix and deliver to broadcast all using Logic.

VSL works really well in Logic as an au plug-in.

Also Logic is a generation in advance of ProTools in audio editing and automation capabilities alone apart from being a gold standard scoring and production DAW.

Does need a Mac though.

Of course this is a personal opinion and I'm sure others may offer their own preferences!

Julian

This is the first I've ever heard that professional score and parts were prepared from a sequencer's notational capabilities. How was it done? Straight from Logic MIDI? Rewire from Sibelius? What about all articulation and expression marks, multiple rests, rehearsal marks, string-desks' divisi staves, multi-percussion staves, etc. etc. may I also ask, for what Olympic concerts/events were these prepared? Are they on YouTube?

Thanks.

Hi Errikos,

Logic has it's own dedicated score page. It uses the midi as a starting point though you can equally just draw in notes. There are a whole bunch of parameters to determine how the midi is interpreted and displayed.

All the score directions you describe above are simply entered as required and the you just print directly from the score page. When done properly you have a fully professional score. I've also learnt from experience that the scores are more "reliable" when created this way as there are fewer translation errors between the mock-up soundtrack and the notes presented to the orchestra.

Everyone I work with acknowledges Sibelius or Finale as the solutions for score preparation however they have limited DAW abilities. I find Logic is more than capable of providing professional recording scores. If I was doing a lot of printed scores without any audio production requirements then I'm sure the dedicated score software packages would be the ones to use.

My website is http://www.julianscott.com/

There is some stuff on there about the Olympics.

Julian

Cubase 6 prints well on A3 and A2 (420x594 mm)

Gerard

Hi Julian, thanks for the information and the links. I didn't know it was the real millennium Olympics you were talking about, I was actually in the stadium that opening night. Would you mind terribly if I P.M.ed you for some further "inquiry"?

No problems, that would be fine.

Julian

@Astro said:

I wish there was some program that had the midi and audio capabilities of a DAW and the notational sophistication of Sibelius! 

Yeah!  And how about this: seamlessly incorporates the attributes of both VI (Pro), VE (Pro), and MIR flawlessly.  That would just be soooo darn peachy wouldn't it! 

[akward pause as all eyes turn to the VSL Team]

As it stands now, there just isn't one around.  As far as your conundrum is concerned Michael I find Sonar to be quite useful in many ways.  I agree, however, that the notation side is severely lacking.  I had great expectations with 8.5 but it's no better the 7.  I should have known better.  I actually e-mailed and called Cakewalk concerning this before 8.5's release but the response I received from Cakewalk and other DAW manufacturers is that there just isn't enough of a market to incorporate a sophisticated detailed scoring application that integrates with the MIDI side of the house the way orchestral composers desire.  So to that end I wish Sonar would just omit the notation application completely in upcomming versions.   It's just dead weight as far as I'm concerned.

As somebody mentioned earlier though, I just score in Finale, export it as a MIDI file then import into Sonar later.  Since all of my templates are set up in VE I load everything up and it all goes pretty quick.  It's just a matter of programming keyswitches, minor editing here and there, then recording.  Depending on the passage, I'll play some stuff in myself.  But I know how you feel.

Jasensmith - thanks for your commiseration.  I'm at least glad to know I am not alone! I am not at all surprised to hear that they feel there is not enough of a market for what we were talking about.  I'm sure it is a pretty small fraction!

Mike

I am a long term user of Sonar too - and have finally lost patience with the team at Cakewalk.  I love the workflow and the great audio facilities of Sonar, but the midi editing and the tempo map editing are absolutely woeful.  I have repeatedly requested enhancements to these aspects of Sonar, but they really aren't interested.  I use 8.5 at the moment, and will not go any further until they improve things. X1 is a joke - just a cosmetic upgrade at the moment, with no real fundamental improvements.

The score side of things don't bother me, as most DAWS are pretty rubbish at that when compared with Sibelius. I have started using Cubase 6, and it is far superior to Sonar in terms of its midi editing and tempo map flexiblity.  I am finding some of the workflow a bit clunky - but that is probably me having to learn a new DAW. The expression map facility makes switching articulations in VSL a breeze - when you have worked out how it all works.  I am looking forward to exploring Note expression too.....

I don't yet use Cubase in rewire mode - I tend to write in sibelius and export the midi.  This works well on the whole, but you do need to be careful what you export if you want a 'clean' import to the DAW I am finding.  Pauses, for instance, seem to cause havoc with the position of notes in bars in the DAW for example - and seems to cause real problems if the pause is in one part and not another......

I think you are right in your opinion of Sonar, and you can't go wrong with Cubase.  If you are a teacher or student you can get a very good price on it too.....

My son will be starting a Music Tech BTEc in september where he will have to use Logic - so I guess I will have chance to see what Logic has to offer soon as well....

I would recommend embracing the piano roll as a way of life, for a contemporary composer, and losing some of the middle man of naming and notating. The completely quantized timing in a notation program is never going to come out very human-sounding; it's a whole lot less hassle and time expended once you've got into the piano roll as a methodology. You have an idea, you record it in real time and you're on the road to getting well.

I wouldn't hold my breath as per a combination of high end notation and good midi editing in one application. It isn't a priority in marketing I think, and it might be a real dodgy idea to try and code.

OTOH, I have had to output music for players to read from my weird projects and I found Cubase to be surprisingly apt and intelligent as a translator to its score editor for my midi. Very surprising.

Oh yeah, the tempo editing is a dream come true. This is where it's at, the tempo track handling. Cubase resolves @ up to 4000 pulses per quarter note, and a tempo marking can be inserted at any point (when zoomed all the way in). Tempi and time sigs can be cut and pasted at will. You can 'warp' the timeline to fit what you have performed or written, so I worry about time sigs and barlines only as I need to. Bars can be inserted down to 1/64...

I am also pretty happy with Cubase (5.5) Scoring Editor. There are some things which are slightly annoying (e.g.: Audio Feedback is quite useless), also Slur Handling could be much better, but for what I am doing it is more then sufficient

Rgds

Gabriel

@rverne10 said:

Steinberg has no trial versions

FYI, Steinberg now offers a 30 day fully functioning trial for Cubase8

I also do all my notation inside of Logic (from Lead sheet and Band to Bigband to Orchestra). Sibelius is more advanced in terms of automatic layout (which can save a lot of time) and special score styles etc. but for me it's just faster using one single DAW from composing and arranging to production. Logic works with Bravura and Jazz fonts and both look great when printed. Never had a problem to write what I want. Might be different if you write avantgarde stuff which needs more graphic elements.

Logic has an interactive score window. Notation works in realtime when recording midi. Every change made in other editors mirrors in the score and vice versa (in opposite to Cubase where the score doesn't change when editing notes in the piano roll). I have Cubase and Sibelius but I just don't use it. I'm too much used to the interactive editors in Logic.

@Saxer said:

I also do all my notation inside of Logic (from Lead sheet and Band to Bigband to Orchestra). Sibelius is more advanced in terms of automatic layout (which can save a lot of time) and special score styles etc. but for me it's just faster using one single DAW from composing and arranging to production. Logic works with Bravura and Jazz fonts and both look great when printed. Never had a problem to write what I want. Might be different if you write avantgarde stuff which needs more graphic elements.

Logic has an interactive score window. Notation works in realtime when recording midi. Every change made in other editors mirrors in the score and vice versa (in opposite to Cubase where the score doesn't change when editing notes in the piano roll). I have Cubase and Sibelius but I just don't use it. I'm too much used to the interactive editors in Logic.

I have Logic too but have never been able to really successfully integrate VSL because of the lack of expression/articulation control.  How do you handle this?  I wish there were similar expression maps for Logic that VSL writes for Cubase.  If that were easier I'd probably dive deeply into Logic to learn the Notation features.

Michael

@mjmyers60 said:

I have Logic too but have never been able to really successfully integrate VSL because of the lack of expression/articulation control.  How do you handle this?  I wish there were similar expression maps for Logic that VSL writes for Cubase.  If that were easier I'd probably dive deeply into Logic to learn the Notation features.

there are meanwhile a few Logic X alternatives to Cubase expression maps by third party developers.

http://www.audiogrocery.com/a.g_toolkit_pro.htm

http://www.skiswitcher.com

http://www.babylonwaves.com

@mjmyers60 said:

I have Logic too but have never been able to really successfully integrate VSL because of the lack of expression/articulation control.  How do you handle this?  I wish there were similar expression maps for Logic that VSL writes for Cubase.  If that were easier I'd probably dive deeply into Logic to learn the Notation features.

there are meanwhile a few Logic X alternatives to Cubase expression maps by third party developers.

http://www.audiogrocery.com/a.g_toolkit_pro.htm

http://www.skiswitcher.com

http://www.babylonwaves.com

Saxer, Thanks, I've looked at Audiogrocery but it seems very complicated.  I want to make music, not write code!  Have you tried any of these?  Others have experience?

Michael

@mjmyers60 said:

 

Saxer, Thanks, I've looked at Audiogrocery but it seems very complicated.  I want to make music, not write code!  Have you tried any of these?  Others have experience?

Michael

you have to watch the videos and it takes a bit of time. but you have to do it just once for your template. and it's not coding, it's just writing the instrument and articulation names into this tables. but when it works it's much easier than keyswitches.

@Michael C. said:

I currently use Sonar 8.5 as my DAW. 

version 8.5 is somehow archaic, new Sonar Platinum is in much better shape. In all areas instead of Staff editor and VST3 is now also fully integrated (for use with multiple MIDI in ports in VE). But if you are going to create serious partitions, you need Sibelius or Finale. Cubase staff options is not enough either.