Hi VSL,
whenever I use the Distant Mic setting in Bosendorfer Imperial, I experience an abrupt change of the note's pan position when playing forte or fortissimo. This means, when playing the *same note* in mf [=Vel. <=99] and="" f="" [="Vel.">=100] alternately, it changes its panning position *considerably*. This is rather annoying and irritating, e. g. when playing a high crescendo trill, the sound is abruptly "wandering" in pan position from right to left when reaching forte velocity. Is this designed on purpose for psychoacoustic reasons or is it a hardware problem on my side? The panning stays consistent when using the Close Mic setting.
This is my system: Toshiba Satellite A100-590 Laptop / MS Windows XP Home SP3 / Genuine Intel CPU T2300 @ 1.66GHz / 1,5GB RAM / EDIROL SD-90 Studio Canvas Audio Interface / Cubase SE 1.04. I have so far experienced no latency or other hardware problems with this configuration. The problem stays the same the when using different versions of VI (2.0, 2.1, 4.1) or VE (2.0, 4.1.7516, 4.1.7644).
It would be nice to get some information about the topic.
Thanks in advance,
Stefan Hetzel
(Bavaria, Germany)
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Bosendorfer Imperial - Distant Mic panning problem
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I have never noticed any abrupt changed in pan, but it may be specific to certain notes. I ran a couple of test measurements using middle C (all default settings) at velocities of 64, 100 and 120, the close position gave very even results with a bias of about 6dB to the left with a variation of 1.31dB between the velocities (transient peak - higher velocities move towards the centre) and only 0.6dB difference in average level.
With the distant position the results were about 1dB to the left with a variation of 0.89dB to the left (transient) and 0.25dB difference in average level, although that variation was at a velocity of 100, it does swing to the right 0.25dB at a velocity of 100 and not at 64 or 120.
These figures are not noticeable to the ear and I am sure are natural resonances, but this is only middle C, you may have found some particular notes that do something completely different, which note gives you the biggest problem?
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Hi andyjh, thanks for your reply :-) The panning anormalities occur in the *whole upper half* of the keyboard, i. e. when moving the mouse over the virtual keyboard from right to left, the sound is *not* shifting in a linear way from right to left, but moving in a, hm, non-linear way between right and left. Is it possible that my VSL DVDs contain errors? Or my external harddisk? Or is it the RAM? Ok, I will install the Bosendorfer Imperial libraries again, maybe that will solve the problem.
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Hi Stefanhetzel,
could it be that you're expecting the same effect that you would get from artificial power-panning ...? After all, you're talking about the Distant Mic setting of the Vienna Imperial. This sample set was recorded from - well - a distance ;-) of several meters, like you would see the piano on a stage. From this perspective you will hear quite a few room-reflections rather than just the direct signal from the strings. Depending on the frequency and the position of the emitting string(s), the room reflections will change the perceived stereo imaging a lot. Pin-pointing two or three single strings in the corpus of that piano would be a difficult task. ;-)
If you aim for that "bigger-than-life left-right stereo experience", I would choose the Player or even the Close position.
Kind regards,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
Dietz and herb, thanks for your replies :-) When I load the Bosendorfer "light" variant that is included in the "SE Percussion & More" package and do the test, the panning is perfect: the highest note is at the extreme right, the lowest at the extreme left, respectively, and the panning goes linearly from right to left, as it should. Meanwhile, I installed the regular Bosendorfer library anew and used a different headphone: same strange panning phenomenon. Let me mention another detail: the Bosendorfer DVD package I received contained *no serial number* within. I was sent one by e-mail by best service GmbH after mailing a photo of the empty box to them. Kind regards, Stefan
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Is the SE version of Bosendorfer CLOSE or DISTANT mics? and are you comparing this with CLOSE or DISTANT mics on Bosendorfer Imperial? As you may not be comparing the same thing.
Make sure you use CLOSE mics on both and then compare - also make sure that the reverb is OFF when you try this comparison.
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Hi andyjh, the SE Bosendorfer has only one variation, which seems to be the close one - the reverb was always turned off during the tests. Kind regards, Stefan
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It would seem to be the resonances of the distant mic (room ambience) that is showing up your panning issues. In Vienna Imperial there is a STEREO WIDTH control which narrows the stereo image, if your version of Bosendorfer Imperial doesn't have this, then you'll have to do it with an effect plug in, Cubase (V5 that is) has a Stereo Enhancer (maybe Cubase SE has it?), settings less than 100 narrow the stereo field, which should do exactly what you need.
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I too am encountering some panning anomalies on the Bosendorfer Imperial using the close pedal up articulation. Take for example d#6. play a series of repetition notes. The image position is consistent as the volume increases (mid right) but as it crosses to the 100-119 f level the image jumps to the centre then returns to the mid-right for the 120-127 ff level. The meters do not indicate the image shift much so perhaps it is a phase thing - but it is very noticeable and in the mix I'm currently working on somewhat disturbing!
It does sound un-natural and extends from c#6 up to the highest note, all notes below c#6 are fine so is it a programming issue? The same effect occurs in the Close mic pedal down patch as well.
Be good if VSL could check this out and offer an opinion - it just sounds like the 100-119 f velocity layer is centred in the upper register.
Thanks, Julian
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Hi Bernd,
Downloaded the updater and dragged it to the directory manager - it installed 8 files OK.
Went to launch VI-Pro in Logic and it immediately crashed. Did re-boot and loaded a different patch in VI-Pro it was OK. soon as I tried to load Bos-Imp_CL pedal-up. Then immediate Logic crash. I then downloaded latest version of e-Licenser and did a re-boot. Tried to load Bos-Imp_CL pedal-up this time Logic hasn't quite but instead it is hanging (beachball). I am using latest versions of Logic/ OS 10.6.7 (it also crashes on 10.6.6) and latest VI-Pro, etc.
I'll send you the crash logs by e-mail.
Julian
