Very good question, indeed! I was wondering the same. Would almost make me think of switching from Logic this time. With the announcement of the first VST Expression I felt the same way. I was glad I didn't, though. After some time it turned out, that the integration with all the different libraries out there - especially complicated ones, like VSL - doesn't make to much sense, when you make you own specialized patches.

This on the other hand is quite interesting again. Although I wonder, if it could work theoreticaly, when the VI-instance is loaded on a slave computer in VE-Pro or MIR ...

fritzflotow: That is not entirely correct.  Vst expression is especially good with complicated stuff like Vsl. However, there was a bug (and still is in C5) that bogged down the computer with compliated expression maps.

The other downside is that it is almost impossible to set up all the articulations for the big Dvd collection. I mean you could theoretically do it but it is just not practible at all.

So, for me I use two tracks for things like solo strings/orchestral strings/brass 1.

The first track is what I use for 98% of the part. The second track is for the remaining 2% that dont fit into the categories I did set up in Vst expression.

Not absolutely elegant, but I dont see a chance that Steinberg listens to such a small fraction of their userbase and makes any further efforts to tailor this for Vsl needs.

For things like Vsl SE or download instruments it works perfectly and easily. And I am very happy that I dont have to memorize all those keyswitches and do all that fiddly painting at the bottom of the key editor.

Well,, of course I don't know the details of VST Expression, since I don't run cubase. Only, from what I heard, it never seemed to be a sollution that covers all my needs in a flexible way. Up to this point the enviroment in logic still seems to be the only thing out there to build a template exactly the way I like it. The downside of the enviroment is the hard work you have to put into, to make your template (I am still not finished ... who is?). When I have to do the mentioned 2% out of the system it is not worth it for me. It's always small things in the end you are unhappy with. I am sure I would feel the same way about cubase, after spending a few days with it.

For me it would take a BIG reason to relearn the whole sequencer. Especially, when I have to give up the logic enviroment. CC-editing per voice is quite a great progress (as far as it really works with most of your sounds), but not quite enough to make me switch.

In Logic, I can turn program changes to keyswitches and save all midi-tracks with patch names. That is not as sophisticated as VST expression, but it comes close in my opinion, since I don't really need it to articulations to show in the score. 

 I made some tests with Cubase 6/VST Expression and our collections. Here are my impressions.

You can use the Expression Maps you find in your User Area with Cubase 5 and Cubase 6 the same way. Some things have been improved.
- You can use a MIDI controller (CC) that's used in an Expression Map live during playback or recording. That was not possible before.
- If you press one of the Remote Keys of the active Expression Map during recording, the according articulation gets an entry on the articulation lane.
- Articulation changes seem to work more stable.
- Dynamic mapping is a cool new feature that works without the need for any implementation from our side.

Additionally I want to mention, that I made some small adjustments to the Special Edition and Special Edition PLUS Expression Maps (Cubase 5 & 6), which should solve some bugs when using sfz, fp or switching back to non-legato. They will be online as soon as our system administrator finds some time for that.

Best regards,
Andi

After finding the VSTExpression system in C5 realtively useless...switched sometimes...sometimes not...I went back to a dedicated track for keyswitches and controllers.

...but, my question is related. The new C6 VSTExpression2 system is FAR more in depth--allowing per note controller info. Of course, it requires VI level support. So, you can use their built in crap...or go back to channel based MIDI. So, it leads me to wonder, is VSTExp v2 compaitbility in the future of VI or VIP? I'm in my 30 day demo period for VIP...this is something that might tip me over to buying if it's going to be implemented in short time.

It truly seems like this VSTExp2 system is truly what MIDI 2.0 should've been...I see this as being a pretty beautiful potential win. Wondering is VSL has explored it...plans? 

 Nothing have been fixed ...[:(] I returned to Cubase 5.5.2 , which works fine...

Yes, I agree it can be quite some work to arrange a set up for the expression maps (for which an xml editor was handy). It was much work to change the dynamics setting to the new Cubase 6 set up (still not finished for all work in progress, which can take some time in my case).

Unfortunately I cannot use the Cubase 6 forum for some unexplainable reason (Steinberg does not answer my cries for help either). But, does anybody know how to make the dynamics and explression settings implemented for one track / instrument, work for other tracks, where the info is stored in what file ?

Gerard

 Dear Andi,

"- Articulation changes seem to work more stable."

They only seem , because in the facts, they bug[:S], even on 6.0.2...

 Don't know what do you mean, 'cause I'm working with Cubase VST expression and since 6.0 it works great! If something goes wrong it can be easily a misstake by yourself, the Cubase manual doesn't explain the workflow very well (and the possibilities of source of errors). You have to be very careful building up your customized expression maps. But one's correctly done it's a revolutionary (and since 6.0 a steady working) feature.   

Best

Frank

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know of a way to keep MIDI CC going through Expression Maps to VIP? The CC01 (Modulation) mapping in many VSL matrices can't be used because the XMap filters out the CC it seems. I *could* map a keyswitch to a CC message but I'd rather keep the mod wheel control. Is this possible at all?

Thanks.

@andi said:

 I made some tests with Cubase 6/VST Expression and our collections. Here are my impressions.

...You can use a MIDI controller (CC) that's used in an Expression Map live during playback or recording. That was not possible before.
- ...

Best regards,
Andi

It would have been the answer, had it worked. On my end, I can *record* MIDI CC 01 but it doesn't get through to the VSL instrument: playback, recording, or playback *of* recording, VIP doesn't respond. I select "No Map" and everything's normal again.

I've gotten the v6 vst expression system to work much better than v5. But, it's on a faster machine, too...and I spent more time customizing. Until devs get vst3.5 compatibility, where cubase "reads" all the articulations loaded and auto assigns lanes, it will take a bunch of set up. But, mine does work quite well now. MUCH nicer than all the non harmonic keys witches. Thought I'd chime in...since this old thread got bumped. 

Could you please elaborate, popmann? The chromatic keys are working fine for me, and I'm taking the time to customize everything anyway, but I'd like to keep using MIDI CCs thru the map which doesn't seem to work for me.

I don't use cc other than what I've defined in the maps to control vip2. I don't know what you want me to elaborate on. I just saw my old post about them being useless and wanted to clarify that I'm finding them quite useful now in v6. Whether that the new machine, new OS, new cubase version, or my spending more time troubleshooting, I don't know. 

Well, from what I understand, VST Expression maps can transform any MIDI Note-on message to another note-on message, MIDI CC or Program Change, and associate an articulation to it in a controller lane. But from what I've seen, for realtime recording, the source message can only be a note-on message (the "remote key" you select as the first optional column for any articulation you define). You cannot define a CC message and ask it to activate another CC message. In other words, no CC messages are passing through the Expression Map to the instrument. They are all filtered out.

So, unless there's something I'm missing completely, while it's possible to create *articulations* that modify CC01 (as controller lanes), it doesn't seem possible to use a map and *still* send MIDI CC01 in realtime by moving the modulation wheel.

Or am I wrong?

So, are you trying to pass cc1 through to the instrument even if the vstexp map only uses say keys witches? Or if it's also using cc1 as part of its map? You certainly won't be able to use it with cc1 defined in the map, because it's effectively "chasing" whatever's in the map. It won't pass the native key switches once they're defined in the map, either. 

My usesge is to play the part with a straight legato, then turn the map on and change articulations as needed. 

OK thanks for the clearup. Not passing the native keyswitches was part of the deal of course, since that's what the interface proposes. Not passing CCs was not, but this is rather a Steinberg issue than a VSL one.

Cheers.