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  4. Attack on legato and sustain string samples in SE

  • Attack on legato and sustain string samples in SE

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    I have the full SE and SE+ libraries, and am in general very pleased with them.  I also have VI pro which helps enormously in creating more realistic orchestral arrangements.

    My main problem is dealing with the attack on the legato and sustain string samples.  I find it difficult to overcome the dreaded 'vuh' sound, where there is a small crescendo on each note, particularly in the upper strings  

    This is not so apparent in more romantic lyrical music, where it is possible to string a legato line together using overlaps of midi notes, and layering the sound with solo strings etc. However, in more classical and baroque arrangements (Mozart and Handel for example) where there are often repeated notes or melodies that are made up of detached notes rather than long lyrical lines, the attacks on these samples can stick out like a sore thumb, with a subtle 'surge' on each note rather than a clean sustained note.

    My question is, how have others overcome this problem.  Are there other techniques I should use?

     I am thinking of investing in one of the full string libraries - not sure which one yet - to take advantage of the Xmas offer. Do the full libraries have samples which help overcome the problem I am having, and if so is any one library better than the others at this?

    Any help gratefully recieved.
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    To reach this result in playing the strings you need to buy the full DVD-Library Chamber Strings, Appassionata strings or Orchestral Strings I+II. I had the same problem and followed the patchlist of the SE and the DVD-library. Alternatively you can combine Sustain with staccato or portato in a good mix-balance, but it does never sound like the original performance-legato combined in Speed-control with Fast-legato or a real marcato. In Pop-Music it does not make a difference if you combine Stacc with Sustain for runs because strings are always in the background, but in classical music every tone should be placed very well-thought out.

    In your case the X-mas offer would fit for the chamber strings, there you will get all needed samples in 1 library standard + extended, so follow free traders for VSL products to buy the standard library, then register it on your VSL-account and mail to VSL to receive the license code for the extended library. 

    The orchestral strings are 2 libraries and the appassionata strings sound a bit like phased out in tonality in some velocity areas, so it is better to combine the chamber strings DVD library with patches of the Orchestral strings from the SE-Libraries. My first impression of the appassionata strings was that they just combined the orchestral and chamber strings in one big package, but sometimes you want to build smaller sounding orchestras, then it is better to combine as described above here.

    It is my suggestion, should not be yours...

    Nico.
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    Thanks for the reply Nico. Very interesting.  Is it because there are more articulations in the full DVD collections, or because they are better quality (more velocity layers, individually sampled note with no stretching) or that they work in a better way with, say, recorded sounds being triggered between legato notes?
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    Yes, there are more articulations in the DVD collections, the special editions are just appetizers. You can extend the winds with the download-instruments, but not the strings. Few years ago there was no existing option for upgrading the instruments, just buying the big libraries and that was all. Then the special edition was born, followed later by the PLUS-edition. After many requests from users, Vienna introduced the upgrade-possibility to get more articulations for the winds including new additional wind instruments with full articulation setup (marked by a small star) via Download-Instruments, so the final upgrade path is to buy the DVD-Collections to get all articulations.

    The quality is always the same.

    A good addition to the collections is the Vienna Plugin Suite, I like working with their equalizers, limiter and Power-pan. You reach the best performance with a full 64bit system with Multi-cores and more than 12 GB RAM to have enough room for other applications. I am a Mac-User and would never go back to Windows.

    As I said, this is just my opinion, should not be yours.

    Nico.
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    Thanks for the reply once again Nico.  I do appreciate that the DVDs have more samples - I was just wondering if it was this fact that solved my particular problem with the Legato/sustained attack?

    I use MIR SE at the moment instead of the Plugin Suite on an i7 PC running windows 7 64 bit (which I love) and 12 gb Ram.
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     Hi Basso,

    if you are using VI PRO you can make this kind of setup:

    In the left patch slot (slots visible in advanced view) place the legato patch, in the right slot a patch with a strong attack, for example staccatos.

    If you uncheck the crossfade button between the slots you don't get crossfaded patches, you get layered patches, and with the SlotX fader you can control the volume exlusively of the right slots.

    Now it depends if you are working with velocity Xfade On or Off. With velocity Xfade off you have to ride the slot Xfade fader manually, whenever you want an attack. This has one advantage you can also use sfz or fp patches with a quick fade off after the attack to avoid to much overlapping of the sounds.

    If you are using velocity Xfade On, you could assign velocity to the slot Xfade slider as controller input. That means the harder you hit any key you get more amount of the right slots = the staccato sounds.

    Even more advanced is using velocity Xfade on exlusively on the legato patch (you can set this in the "Edit" tab, Velocity XF to On),

    and the staccato patch to Off. Now you can define the attack through the whole velocity range.

    For example you are performing with the velocity Xfade slider at a high value, and you play the keys with low velocity, an p-mp attack will be triggered, and vice versa.

    best

    Herb
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    Thank you so much for that information Herb.  I was hoping that there would be more I could get out of VI pro.You have encouraged me to explore further!  I have layered staccato with perf-rep and even short detache and it produces a much better sound - still not perfect but good.

    I tend to produce my music from scores produced in sibelius and imported into a DAW, editing the midi to produce as realistic a sound as possible.  I admire you for inputting via a keyboard - it must be much more organic and controllable if you have the skill, but alas my keyboard skills are OK but limited.  Playing the keyboard and using the midi controls at the same time must be like learning a whole new instrument!

    I am a very experienced professional singer and singing teacher - not much good when getting a midi track together, but good for musicality!

    Thanks again for your helpful words.
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    BTW I did this exact same setup Herb explained with contrasted velocity controlled attack samples mixed with CC sustains with Miroslav Vitous on an Emulator IV in 1998.  Unfortunately, the Miroslav library had about 2 samples for every thousand of VSL so it didn't matter that I came up with that clever approach.
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    Yes, Herb's guide to create a better legato touch for the strings is exactly one of the great possibilities that VI Pro is offering... Furthermore you can create a second violin with the same samples, but in another tonal mood. That is amazing and unique in the symphonic world.

    Actually, I think that we need more time to practice all the functions of VI Pro.

    @Basso: Activate the midi-learn button with the right mouse tab and move any controller of your midi control, maybe Korg microcontrol or any other midi-control pad, so midi is easy to practice.

    @VSL: Maybe it would help to create some VI-Pro Demo Presets like in the Video-Tutorials, maybe for Epic Orchestra or Special editions. Many users have not the acknowledgement to know how to combine which instruments, so maybe it is easier to learn more functions of VI-Pro...

    Simple and easy to practice should be the way...

    Nico.