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  • I pasted those URLs into Safari and they led right to the videos. Try again.

    Have I personally used studio calibre musicians? Well yes, when a client pays me for real instruments I don't use amateurs or go to the local high school orchestra. There are pros in every city, unfortunately like everything, their experience varies re recording, and unless you are in NY, Nashville, Chicago or LA it's hard to find an entire roomful of players who are really tops. And it gets harder all the time because less and less live sessions are used because of sampling, and the fact that it saves everyone so much money no one seems to care much anymore what it sounds like, again, as long as it is delivered by Friday.

    What they needed to play, whether you consider it "sophomoric" or not, is immaterial, there's that snobbish attitude again that always rears it's head in these conversations, as if there is a standard of composition that is acceptable, and another, which is not.

    Is there a "roll your eyes" icon anywhere around here?

    TH


  • " I've already conceded the 'Great Orchestra' vs. great emulation point."

    Again it's not always about a "great orchestra."

    I did something, as I mentioned, recently, that only needed french horn and flute in one section, and good as my VSL mockup sounded, I had the opportunity to use the real guys on the part and had them do it, just for fun, at the end of another section. It was only a few bars long in the middle of a pop piece. The violins remained VSL/Lass, but it was interesting hearing the real horns and flutes vs the mockup. Both ended up sounding great, both entirely usable, but I preferred the real instruments. Just me I guess.


  • William...I see you've worked yourself into a lather again....

    Do you always just make things up as you go along?

    Please show us all where I EVER stated "ALL SAMPLE LIBRARIES ARE THE SAME."

    Let's start there, THEN...let's move on to where you misrepresent me again and state they I have said

    "I AM ANTI SAMPLE"

    You absolutely sound like someone who should consider medication. This isn't passion, it's just weird.

    TH


  • You're no fun to debate with since you don't want to hear what everyone else is saying. Your URLs point to Jay Bacal and the Boston Pops; I know! That's not what I was talking about - read my posts carefully; you'll become wiser. Further, you inadvertently answered my questions about the music you do. Snobbish attitude? Since when having clear aesthetic preferences is snobbery? Would you say that your preferring real orchestras/ensembles to samples is also snobbish, or is snobbery as selective as your retention of information? "When a client pays me... blah...blah..." I'm not talking about a flute and a horn. What do you do when the client wants an orchestra and doesn't pay for it. Do you go to your high-school since you prefer live musicians, or do you sample? 

    Also, would you say that there is a minimum standard of performance that is acceptable and anything below it is not? Of course you do, you don't accept 'run-throughs' as finished products. The same goes for composition, and these days most of it is sub-standard.

    P.S.: Is it that hard for you to compute that we also prefer the real thing? We just can't afford it (and neither can you), and so we sequence instead.

    P.S.2: the word I used was 'soporific', but 'sophomoric' will also do.


  • Errikos I've heard what you all have to say, and I know you are all huge sampling fans, to the point where unless one compares the samples to the London Symphony, then the samples win (and I dare say with William they would probably win against anything).

    Having aesthetic preferences has nothing to do with whether sample libraries sound as good as real orchestra, that was my point. I could care less whether you like Bach, The Beatles, or both. It has nothing to do with the discussion, I responded only because of what seemed like a dismissive attitude by yourself when you said "Unless it's some....whatever it was." Just sounded like elitism to me. Go reread it again yourself and perhaps you'll see how it could have come off. There is a lot of high horsing around these parts, and a lot of REALLY sensitive people it would seem.

    No... preferring real instruments is not "snobbery" unless you've gone off the deep end. 

    When my clients ask me how much it will cost to do a TV spot let's say, that I've demoed to them with samples, I tell them I will give them two quotes, one with real strings, brass, etc, and one with a better sounding version of the demo (meaning I'll go tweak the samples and programming and give them a good mix). Most say "The demo sounds really good" when they hear the difference in price. A few say "It's worth it, go for the real guys." Those are generally agencies whom have taken a chance on going with real instruments at one time or another and loved the results.

    Is that hard for you to understand that I and many other pros I know ALWAYS prefer real? Even in small sections? Even in a flute solo? Does that mean we are ANTI SAMPLE people, filled with large egos? I think you know that's just silly.

    TH


  • (Dear all: Once again - please stick to a friendly, respectful and polite tone in this thread. Thanks!)


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Yes Dietz, I'd be all for that, I'm afraid it's gotten a bit heated, as we are all passionate about one thing I think we can all agree...and that is music and it's creation. I do apologize if anyone has taken anything personally and for going over the top in some replies to posts which I considered in themselves personal attacks.

    TH


  • My call for moderation wasn't aimed at you personally, but at all participants of this nice "heated" discussion. ;-)

    Kind regards,


    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Did someone ask about the meaning of life? [:)]



  • Thank you Dietz, I'm aligning my chakras right now... Wait, I just made a new year's resolution. I'm going to be nice from now on, even when provoked by sorriness; after all, one's not responsible for one's lack in grey matter.


  • " after all, one's not responsible for one's lack in grey matter."

    Still with the insults when someone disagrees with you, eh? lol

    TH


  • The meaning of this thread.



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    @aerovons said:

    " after all, one's not responsible for one's lack in grey matter."

    Still with the insults when someone disagrees with you, eh? lol

    Far from me to insult anybody for just disagreeing with me. The "insult" was a result of my frustration caused by your lack of comprehension, which is really not your fault, so I apologize.

     

    However, it was prompted by your not realizing that a) Your points were not well-made, b) I took the time to address your inconclusive points and asked you questions that would help clarify them and to which you did not respond, c) I explained my points in many different ways and you still wouldn't get them (proof of that is that you always talked about other things, never counter-arguing).

     

    You see, it's not that we disagree - we don't in some respects, it's that you are incapable of making and sustaining a cogent argument, and if my mixes weren't also completely frustrating me for the last 24 hours, I wouldn't have even bothered.


  • Sorry Errikos, I thought I'd answered all your questions, I believe you just didn't like the answers so ignored the fact I had responded to them.

    Again, there is no reason for people to slam others because they disagree, I don't believe the same things you and William do about sampled instruments vs live players, it's as simple as that. 

    TH


  • -


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    My original question was motivated by an earlier thought experiment proposed by Alan Turing in 1950.

    “The Turing test is a test of a machine's ability to demonstrate intelligence. A human judge engages in a natural language conversation with one human and one machine, each of which tries to appear human. All participants are separated from one another. If the judge cannot reliably tell the machine from the human, the machine is said to have passed the test. In order to test the machine's intelligence rather than its ability to render words into audio, the conversation is limited to a text-only channel such as a computer keyboard and screen.”

    If you substitute music vocabulary in the quote for intelligence and sample sounds for computer keyboard and screen and If the judge cannot reliably tell the sampled sounds from the human performer the sampled sounds/sequencer combination passes the test.

    This particular experiment was a keystone in the subsequent pursuit of artificial intelligence.

    Perhaps it would be useful to use the term “artificial music” to describe the music resulting from the use of sequencers and sampled sounds in the digital environment in contrast to “performance music” resulting from the traditional performer based environments.

    If we consider the question from the composers point of view, the primary effect of the “artificial music” is access to compelling realistic representations of instruments which is the process of composition inspire and enable the composer to create the intended work. I am assuming that the composition is created from a keyboard in real time using the instruments to be included from start to finish. Once the shape of the composition is established, it can be edited and orchestrated while preserving the overall shape of the piece.

    I think we can all agree that the sound of “artificial music” created in the early 1980’s with 8 bit samples and the Mac SE has been transformed by a quantum leap using the 2010 versions of Vienna Instrument’s sample sounds and MIR venues. Does it sound like “performance music”? To this composer the answer is a resounding yes! I think the multiple impulse responses of the venues put the system over the top. It is finally possible to perform your own original chamber music as credible “Artificial Music”. I find the environment both musical and inspiring!

    Now to access. I live in Wheat Ridge, Colorado, a suburb of Denver, i.e. the “wilde west”where the stock show is still the biggest event of the year. Finding affordable competent players and venues equivalent to the venues in MIR for recording are non existent. Since July of 2010, I have posted 80 original compositions performed in the various venues of MIR and with the Vienna Instruments on Youtube. (http://www.youtube.com/user/Bachbeatty) This would not have been possible without VI and MIR. For this access, I am eternally grateful to Herb, Dietz, and all the others who made these softwares possible. They have been a source of unending inspiration and at the pragmatic level enabled the work to be elevated to level that is believable musically even though it is “artificial music”. It is all about what fiction you choose to believe.

    I apologize for the late response, The original message was posted on 12/1/2010 did not receive an response so I assumed the question had been ignored. So you can imagine my surprise at the scope of the discussion when I returned to the site yesterday. In reading the messages I am impressed by the level of passion and commitment that the respondents have for their art, I experience the same feelings.

    Regards,

    Stephen W. Beatty


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    @Stephen W. Beatty said:

    think we can all agree that the sound of “artificial music” created in the early 1980’s with 8 bit samples and the Mac SE has been transformed by a quantum leap using  the 2010 versions of Vienna Instrument’s sample sounds and MIR venues. Does it sound like “performance music”? To this composer the answer is a resounding yes!  I think the multiple impulse responses of the venues put the system over the top. It is finally possible to perform your own original chamber music as credible “Artificial Music”. I find the environment both musical and inspiring!
     

    [quote=Stephen W. Beatty]

    I am no longer arguing with anyone on this Forum, but  simply wanted to say --

    Stephen, that is beautifully put and it is exacty what I feel and think.  I think you expressed it precisely.


  • Thanks William,

    I think we are all in a state of "Future Shock" especially if you are in your seventies as I am. We all have models of how things are suppose to be and when something comes along that is completely outside the model, humans have a tendency to go into a state confused disbelief. Thirty some years ago I was at a home show looking for windows and I heard this Dixie Land Band playing on the other side of the petition. I went around into that space and here was a guy at a keyboard and the band was playing but there was no band. He explained about midi and I took the literature home and It had to cook for almost three months before I could get my head around it. Pianos came with keys, strings and hammers but no band sounds and that was that! Wrong again. That was my first introduction to midi, I bought a Mac Se and and 8 bit emax keyboard and starting composing music, I was 45 at the time.  

    I enjoyed your symphonic mix and hope your album goes well. 

    Regards, 

    Stephen W. Beatty


  • I just found this thread, and all I can say is, holy crap, guys. I would have thought that in the 5 pages of venom I've skimmed over, I'd at least find one post asking about the original topic - the movie Tangled.

    I was the orchestrator for the film, I was the one featured in the WSJ video, and I also did all of the mockups. If anyone would like to get back to the original topic, please feel free to either continue this discussion or PM me.

    Thanks,

    Kevin


  • Stephen - you're not in your seventies are you?     [8-|]  [<:o)]

    Look what the British did to Alan Turing.  [:D]