What hardware specifications required to produce high end orchestral music using VSL instrument...

[jonathan collins]

I am looking to set up a system to compose and produce Orchestral music. My vision is to produce music that sounds like a recording of a live orchestra. I expect that I will need to run a lot of Virtual Instruments and effects plug ins in parallel. I have been advised to build a system based on:

1. 12 core Mac Pro with 32 Gig ram 

2. Logic 

3. VSL

Will such a system run smoothly without timing or latency problems? If not what should I change in the specifications? Would a lower spec system still work comfortably without any timing or latency issues?

I would very much appreciate advice from people with experience of this type of music production. Thank you.

[mike connelly]

You should be aware that Logic doesn't yet fully support eight core machines, performance is only slightly better than quads.  The same may be true of 12 core machines - hopefully they will release a Logic update soon that will use all cores more fully.

That said, with an eight core mac, even without Logic fully optimized I am able to run some big orchestral sessions without problems.  I'd say 32 gigs of ram is way overkill, personally I'd probably start with 12 (3x4) and add more later if you need it.  Another option to consider is SSD (solid state drive), they work great for streaming samples and the drives are often a bottleneck more than cpu power, although if the vienna plugin doesn't have options to reduce buffer size they may not provide as much benefit as with some other sample playback software.

You didn't say which version of VSL you're looking at, if it's a smaller version like the special edition you might be fine with eight cores or even a fast quad.

[Sergino Futurino]

 I may be wrong but I think it is useless to put 32 giga of RAM in a 6 or 12 core model, as it would take all the 8 RAM slots that are in the Mac Pro for the 4 or 8 core models.

You should go for multiple of 6, not less than 24 if you want high performances.

If I am right, maybe you should find someone else to advise you?[8-|]

[jonathan collins]

 Hi Mike,

Thank you for your reply. The only VSL instrument I have auditioned so far is the Imperial Piano (Bosendorfer) which was very impressive. I want to create a very authentic sound so I presume that I will need the DVD instruments. What would you recommend from your experience?

A few more questions:

1. Which SSD drives, and how many will I need?

2. Which sound card?

3. Would you recommend any particular midi keyboard/controller to get the best expression out of the instruments?

Thanks again for your help.

[mike connelly]

I don't have an SSD yet but I should hopefully have a Crucial C300 128 gig one soon and see how it works.  The main factor is read speed for sample playback - there are various other specs and features but you'd be best doing some online research to find out more.  How many you need depends on how much hard drive space your libraries take up.

[noldar12]

 One thing that is critical to know that you have not told us is your budget.

You will also need many things in addition to the computer and VSL sound libraries.

These include:

Excellent audio/sound card with enough ins/outs for your intended setup.  If you intend to use just one computer fully decked out, fewer ins/outs will be needed.  One other thing to consider, will you be working strictly in stereo, or do you want to explore the world of surround sound?  If the latter, more outputs will be needed on the card.

Quality monitors: figure at least $1000 a pair: IMO best if full range without a need for a subwoofer.

Depending on the room you will be working in: basic room/sound treatment.

Amplifier if monitors are not self-powered.

Consider also possibly getting two video monitors: one for your sequencer, one to display VSL.

You might wish to consider MIR as well, though for now that is PC only.

It may be that you already have some of these items.  For more specific suggestions, you really need to provide more information about your situation and what you intend.

Until Mac fully gets its act together in the 64 bit world, it is not necessarily the best choice.  At the very least, for the amount of money you appear to be thinking of spending, it is worth it to explore all options.  Also, consider researching computers built by DAW specialists.

From your questions, honestly, it sounds like you need to do much more research before making decisions.  The type of computer you would need to run the full VSL SE lirbaries is very different from what you would need it you want to buy a large selection of the full and extended libraries.

Realize as well that whatever you decide to get, much work will be involved in creating a realistic sounding demo using sound samples - even ones as outstanding as VSL's.  Figure that you will have to do a lot of tweaking in Logic, make extensive use of the various articulations for each instrument as appropriate, as well as taking many other steps.  It can be very rewarding, but there is no instant solution.  In essence you have to program in all the expression that comes naturally to live players.

[Cyril Blanc]

Be careful  in your choice because depending what you want to do with your SDD you could had very good or very bad MB/s

Crucial is not very good when you need writing a lot, Corsair is better !

[mike connelly]

What I plan to do with SSD is to stream samples, which is all reading and no writing.  The particular model from Crucial I am looking at is one of the fastest I've seen for reading.  Writing is considerably slower but that will only matter for installing the samples so I'm fine with that.

In general, with the current SSD drives, personally I would only use them for applications that are heavy on reading and light on writing.

[Cyril Blanc]

IT is fast only if you have a 6gb/s Sata interface, like the rocket raid card

 6Gb/s = Read 355, Write 75

 3Gb/s = Read 265, Write 75

Looking at the price in France it is better to buy them directly from Crucial, and you have

- free shipping

- 45 days return guarantee

- Macpro support 

[mike connelly]

75 for write is for the 64 gig version, the 128 writes at 150 and the bigger versions even faster.  True that it won't get full speed with sata 2, but even if it saturates the bus that's still a vast improvement over HD.

[jonathan collins]

 Thank you for your advice. You are right that I need to do more research!

Sound Card

I have been recommended:

Apogee Duet (2 in/out) or RME fireface 400 (16 in/out)

I don't expect to need more than 2 simultaneous audio inputs from here on. However I do have material on 16 track tape that I want to convert; I was assuming I could do this 2 tracks at a time using SMPTE code to syncronise the start of the recording in Logic or (if this is not possible?)  nudging the tracks in Logic until they all synchronise.

Monitors

I already have some entry level Tannoy studio monitors I bought in the 1980s, powered by a seperate Rotel hi fi amplifier. The Tannoys are neutral sounding but maybe monitors have moved on a lot since those days? Would you recommend an upgrade?

I would be interested to explore surround sound. What is your experience?

Which VSL Library?

The only instrument I have auditioned is the Imperial Piano, which as far as I know is the top of the range piano VI. As far as the rest of the orchestra is concerned I have been recommended the Symphonic Cube. Assuming the demos posted are solely using instruments from the Symphonic Cube I feel this will most likely be sufficient for my current aspirations (the only exception to this from what I have heard would be the Apassionata strings which seem to be a must have).

To run Logic Pro with the above VSL instruments I have been recommended the following hardware by an authorised reseller of VSL:

2.8GHZ Quad-Core Mac Pro with 6 Gig RAM and 3 (or 4) 1TB Hard disks.

The rationale for limiting RAM to 6 Gig initially is:

1. Allow for expansion by using 2 x 3 gig memory slots leaving 2 spare slots

2. The assumption that VSL is only released in Beta as a 64 bit application. Therefore the most RAM it can use is 4 Gig.

However I have just had a response from VSL technical support to say that all VSL software is available in 64 bit and should therefore be capable of addressing a huge amount of RAM. Theoretically then a huge amount of the VSL library can be loaded into RAM and there should be much reduced need to stream samples from disk during playback and recording. However this will depend on whether the program has actually been designed/changed to utilise RAM in this way.

Does anyone know whether the 64 bit VSL software is a very new release and if so whether it is stable?

The rationale for 3/4 hard disks is  to split VSL instruments as evenly as possible across 2 or more disks so as to optimise seek time for any samples that need to be loaded at any specific time. This is based on the premise that the main delay in a disk request is finding the start of the file to be loaded.

The supplier I am discusssing this felt that using a RAID disk array was unlikely to boost performance very much for this computer environment. The reason for this is the low probability that any given request to load a batch of samples from disk will be a contiguous file striped evenly across the RAID array. This is a valid view, however it may be that VSL has been programmed to stream samples in just this way in which case it would of course be more efficient (does anyone know?).

The rational for specifying a 4 core MAC instead of 8 or 12 cores is based on the likelihood of either VSL or Logic Pro making any use of the additional cores.I have not yet been able to establish a definitive answer to this question. I have found out the following:

1. Current version Logic Pro can utilise a maximum of 8 cores.

2. I can't find out how many cores VSL is capable of using

3. The meters supplied in the MAC OS illustrating the use of available cores can be very misleading. A core can be shown as busy when in fact it is simply waiting for a task to be given to it. So there is no way of knowing how much processing is actually being carried out per individual core.

4. Since the OS will make use of multiple cores it is impossible to differentiate between OS, Logic and VSL as to which of these is utilising multiple cores.

5.  Not all tasks can be shared across multiple cores. Often a task cannot proceed until the result of another task is known. 

6. Multiple cores will not be used by application software unless the programmers have specifically allowed for this in their coding. It is notoriously difficult to write code that distributes processing over multiple cores without errors.

From my research it seems unlikely that 8 or 12 cores will increase performance very much over a 4 core machine with the same RAM. However I suppose if the OS  makes efficient use of multiple cores, this will free up more dedicated processing time for Logic and VSL. The acid test would be to run a VSL performance that results in latency (or runs out of resources) on a 4 core machine and see whether it runs smoothly on an 8 core machine. 

Has anyone run any benchmarking tests to compare the actual performance of these 2 environments?

I look forward to any feedback.

Regards

Jonathan

[noldar12]

 As I am a PC user and not a Mac user, I can't help you with your Mac computer hardware questions.

One other soundcard that might be worth a look depending on your budget is the new RME Babyface (either just released or is about to be released, don't recall).  It looks like it would be more complete than the Apogee Duet, and RME has done far better than others in its USB drivers.  It was one I would have seriously considered myself as part of a computer upgrade, but my budget was more limited.

[DG]

 OK, a few assumptions that you have made are not correct:

1. It is true that Logic will only use 8 cores, real or virtual. Therefore on the latest dual socket machines you would only be able to use a third of the power available to you. However, if you use VE Pro you could use all this power, as VE Pro can use as many cores as you have.
2. Even if you run Logic 32bit you can still run VE pro as 64bit, thereby using all the RAM you have. If you really want to do high end orchestral stuff you would run out of RAM pretty quickly with 12GB, never mind 6GB.
3. I assume that talking about 3GB RAM sticks was a typo.
4. The pre-load of the sample that is loaded into RAM is fixed. You have no control over that.

DG

[Cyril Blanc]

If you want to monitor your Mac you can use "activity monitor"

In the devellopers tools you have "Bigtop", you will get very interesting diagram 

To get it either you download Xcode developer  tool and select the "chud" package and install it 

Or send me a PM I will send it to you

Best

Cyril

[jonathan collins]

 Thank you for your reply. Can you clarify a bit please:

1. "Even if you run Logic 32bit you can still run VE pro as 64bit, thereby using all the RAM you have".

As far as I can see VE Pro is not a sequencer so I will have to use a sequencer in parallel with VE Pro in order to make any recordings. This raises several questions:

a. What is the benefit of running VE Pro as 64 bit as opposed to running Logic as 64 bit with VSL instruments as plug-ins?

b. Do I need to run VE PRO in any event in order to use VSL?

c. What can you do in VE Pro that you can't do in Logic?

 2. "If you really want to do high end orchestral stuff you would run out of RAM pretty quickly with 12GB, never mind 6GB".

I presume you have experienced problems running out of RAM on your own system doing high end orchestral stuff?  What system are you running to avoid running out of RAM? How much RAM would you suggest I need?

3. "The pre-load of the sample that is loaded into RAM is fixed. You have no control over that."

Do you know whether the samples are pre-loaded in exactly the same sequence that they are saved on disk?

Regards

Jonathan

[DG]

 1a) The benefits are twofold:

1. You don't have to navigate Logic's bit bridge for your 32bit plugs.
2. You can load a template and keep it loaded even if you change sessions, or Logic crashes.

1b) No

1c) Load a template and keep it loaded is the main benefit. However, panning is rather more intuitive than Logic I believe.

2) My system is in my specs. I have a template of around 24GB loaded at the start of the day and then if I need to change projects it is very quick. Any special instruments that are used only in a particular project are loaded directly in my sequencer and loaded up with the project. The amount of RAM that you need will depend on whether or not you like loading up a template or just loading as necessary, and how many articulations you like to use.

3) Sorry, I don't understand the question.

DG

[jonathan collins]

 Thanks for your reply.

I take it that a template is a saved set of performance parameters for 1 or more VSL instruments? Do you create your own templates from scratch or are there ready made templates shipped with the package? Is there any information I can download from the VSL web site on this topic?

Try as I might I can't find your system specs! NB Does your system now ever run out of resources for the work you are doing?

3. "The pre-load of the sample that is loaded into RAM is fixed. You have no control over that."

Do you know whether the samples are pre-loaded in exactly the same sequence that they are saved on disk? I am trying to determine with this question whether a RAID disk array would improve the efficiency of VSL when loading samples into RAM. e.g. if a particular VSL instrument is required to be loaded into RAM from disk during playback then a RAID array will only speed up the disk access markedly if the exact samples required were originally written as one continuous block of data to the RAID disks.

Thanks for your help.

Regards

Jonathan

[DG]

My template is just a whole load of Instruments, complete with all the controllers, that I like  to use when programming for orchestra. You can use the Presets for the Instruments which come with VSL, but I don't think i use any of them, because I have a much more efficient way of working that these don't cover. Also they don't include all the articulations that I like to use. However, once you've built up your own library of Presets, loaded them into a few instances of VEP you can save this whole thing as one file, and then you only have to make a couple of clicks to load all these samples. I have a Nuendo template that automatically connects all of the channels that I have in the VEP template, so although the loading time for the samples at the start of the day is significant, I only do it once, no matter how many projects I have to open and close during the day.

Nothing is loaded into RAM during playback. However, if you are streaming a huge number of instruments at the same time, you might find it better to stream the samples from 2 discs rather than 1. This is what I'm doing, and I have no problems with streaming.

DG

[jonathan collins]

Thanks, I am gradually getting a clearer picture!

1. I am slightly confused when you say that nothing is loaded into RAM during playback. Surely when streaming samples from disk the samples must be loaded into RAM for the VI to then use them?

NB I intend to get 3 hard disks and spread the samples evenly amongst them.

2. I am still not clear as to the hardware spec I need to run trouble free (cores, RAM etc.). Please can you tell me the specifications of your set up to help guide me on this.

regards

Jonathan

p.s do you have a web site where I can listen to your music?

[DG]

The pre-load of samples is done before you playback. During playback no more is loaded into RAM; the VI Player streams the rest of the sample from disc. If it was loaded into RAM during  playback the RAM usage would go up dramatically.

My specs are in my sig.

DG