Thank you for your advice. You are right that I need to do more research!

Sound Card

I have been recommended:

Apogee Duet (2 in/out) or RME fireface 400 (16 in/out)

I don't expect to need more than 2 simultaneous audio inputs from here on. However I do have material on 16 track tape that I want to convert; I was assuming I could do this 2 tracks at a time using SMPTE code to syncronise the start of the recording in Logic or (if this is not possible?)  nudging the tracks in Logic until they all synchronise.

Monitors

I already have some entry level Tannoy studio monitors I bought in the 1980s, powered by a seperate Rotel hi fi amplifier. The Tannoys are neutral sounding but maybe monitors have moved on a lot since those days? Would you recommend an upgrade?

I would be interested to explore surround sound. What is your experience?

Which VSL Library?

The only instrument I have auditioned is the Imperial Piano, which as far as I know is the top of the range piano VI. As far as the rest of the orchestra is concerned I have been recommended the Symphonic Cube. Assuming the demos posted are solely using instruments from the Symphonic Cube I feel this will most likely be sufficient for my current aspirations (the only exception to this from what I have heard would be the Apassionata strings which seem to be a must have).

To run Logic Pro with the above VSL instruments I have been recommended the following hardware by an authorised reseller of VSL:

2.8GHZ Quad-Core Mac Pro with 6 Gig RAM and 3 (or 4) 1TB Hard disks.

The rationale for limiting RAM to 6 Gig initially is:

1. Allow for expansion by using 2 x 3 gig memory slots leaving 2 spare slots

2. The assumption that VSL is only released in Beta as a 64 bit application. Therefore the most RAM it can use is 4 Gig.

However I have just had a response from VSL technical support to say that all VSL software is available in 64 bit and should therefore be capable of addressing a huge amount of RAM. Theoretically then a huge amount of the VSL library can be loaded into RAM and there should be much reduced need to stream samples from disk during playback and recording. However this will depend on whether the program has actually been designed/changed to utilise RAM in this way.

Does anyone know whether the 64 bit VSL software is a very new release and if so whether it is stable?

The rationale for 3/4 hard disks is  to split VSL instruments as evenly as possible across 2 or more disks so as to optimise seek time for any samples that need to be loaded at any specific time. This is based on the premise that the main delay in a disk request is finding the start of the file to be loaded.

The supplier I am discusssing this felt that using a RAID disk array was unlikely to boost performance very much for this computer environment. The reason for this is the low probability that any given request to load a batch of samples from disk will be a contiguous file striped evenly across the RAID array. This is a valid view, however it may be that VSL has been programmed to stream samples in just this way in which case it would of course be more efficient (does anyone know?).

The rational for specifying a 4 core MAC instead of 8 or 12 cores is based on the likelihood of either VSL or Logic Pro making any use of the additional cores.I have not yet been able to establish a definitive answer to this question. I have found out the following:

1. Current version Logic Pro can utilise a maximum of 8 cores.

2. I can't find out how many cores VSL is capable of using

3. The meters supplied in the MAC OS illustrating the use of available cores can be very misleading. A core can be shown as busy when in fact it is simply waiting for a task to be given to it. So there is no way of knowing how much processing is actually being carried out per individual core.

4. Since the OS will make use of multiple cores it is impossible to differentiate between OS, Logic and VSL as to which of these is utilising multiple cores.

5.  Not all tasks can be shared across multiple cores. Often a task cannot proceed until the result of another task is known. 

6. Multiple cores will not be used by application software unless the programmers have specifically allowed for this in their coding. It is notoriously difficult to write code that distributes processing over multiple cores without errors.

From my research it seems unlikely that 8 or 12 cores will increase performance very much over a 4 core machine with the same RAM. However I suppose if the OS  makes efficient use of multiple cores, this will free up more dedicated processing time for Logic and VSL. The acid test would be to run a VSL performance that results in latency (or runs out of resources) on a 4 core machine and see whether it runs smoothly on an 8 core machine. 

Has anyone run any benchmarking tests to compare the actual performance of these 2 environments?

I look forward to any feedback.

Regards

Jonathan

 As I am a PC user and not a Mac user, I can't help you with your Mac computer hardware questions.

One other soundcard that might be worth a look depending on your budget is the new RME Babyface (either just released or is about to be released, don't recall).  It looks like it would be more complete than the Apogee Duet, and RME has done far better than others in its USB drivers.  It was one I would have seriously considered myself as part of a computer upgrade, but my budget was more limited.

 OK, a few assumptions that you have made are not correct:

1. It is true that Logic will only use 8 cores, real or virtual. Therefore on the latest dual socket machines you would only be able to use a third of the power available to you. However, if you use VE Pro you could use all this power, as VE Pro can use as many cores as you have.
2. Even if you run Logic 32bit you can still run VE pro as 64bit, thereby using all the RAM you have. If you really want to do high end orchestral stuff you would run out of RAM pretty quickly with 12GB, never mind 6GB.
3. I assume that talking about 3GB RAM sticks was a typo.
4. The pre-load of the sample that is loaded into RAM is fixed. You have no control over that.

DG

If you want to monitor your Mac you can use "activity monitor"

In the devellopers tools you have "Bigtop", you will get very interesting diagram 

To get it either you download Xcode developer  tool and select the "chud" package and install it 

Or send me a PM I will send it to you

Best

Cyril

 Thank you for your reply. Can you clarify a bit please:

1. "Even if you run Logic 32bit you can still run VE pro as 64bit, thereby using all the RAM you have".

As far as I can see VE Pro is not a sequencer so I will have to use a sequencer in parallel with VE Pro in order to make any recordings. This raises several questions:

a. What is the benefit of running VE Pro as 64 bit as opposed to running Logic as 64 bit with VSL instruments as plug-ins?

b. Do I need to run VE PRO in any event in order to use VSL?

c. What can you do in VE Pro that you can't do in Logic?

 2. "If you really want to do high end orchestral stuff you would run out of RAM pretty quickly with 12GB, never mind 6GB".

I presume you have experienced problems running out of RAM on your own system doing high end orchestral stuff?  What system are you running to avoid running out of RAM? How much RAM would you suggest I need?

3. "The pre-load of the sample that is loaded into RAM is fixed. You have no control over that."

Do you know whether the samples are pre-loaded in exactly the same sequence that they are saved on disk?

Regards

Jonathan

 1a) The benefits are twofold:

1. You don't have to navigate Logic's bit bridge for your 32bit plugs.
2. You can load a template and keep it loaded even if you change sessions, or Logic crashes.

1b) No

1c) Load a template and keep it loaded is the main benefit. However, panning is rather more intuitive than Logic I believe.

2) My system is in my specs. I have a template of around 24GB loaded at the start of the day and then if I need to change projects it is very quick. Any special instruments that are used only in a particular project are loaded directly in my sequencer and loaded up with the project. The amount of RAM that you need will depend on whether or not you like loading up a template or just loading as necessary, and how many articulations you like to use.

3) Sorry, I don't understand the question.

DG

 Thanks for your reply.

I take it that a template is a saved set of performance parameters for 1 or more VSL instruments? Do you create your own templates from scratch or are there ready made templates shipped with the package? Is there any information I can download from the VSL web site on this topic?

Try as I might I can't find your system specs! NB Does your system now ever run out of resources for the work you are doing?

3. "The pre-load of the sample that is loaded into RAM is fixed. You have no control over that."

Do you know whether the samples are pre-loaded in exactly the same sequence that they are saved on disk? I am trying to determine with this question whether a RAID disk array would improve the efficiency of VSL when loading samples into RAM. e.g. if a particular VSL instrument is required to be loaded into RAM from disk during playback then a RAID array will only speed up the disk access markedly if the exact samples required were originally written as one continuous block of data to the RAID disks.

Thanks for your help.

Regards

Jonathan

My template is just a whole load of Instruments, complete with all the controllers, that I like  to use when programming for orchestra. You can use the Presets for the Instruments which come with VSL, but I don't think i use any of them, because I have a much more efficient way of working that these don't cover. Also they don't include all the articulations that I like to use. However, once you've built up your own library of Presets, loaded them into a few instances of VEP you can save this whole thing as one file, and then you only have to make a couple of clicks to load all these samples. I have a Nuendo template that automatically connects all of the channels that I have in the VEP template, so although the loading time for the samples at the start of the day is significant, I only do it once, no matter how many projects I have to open and close during the day.

Nothing is loaded into RAM during playback. However, if you are streaming a huge number of instruments at the same time, you might find it better to stream the samples from 2 discs rather than 1. This is what I'm doing, and I have no problems with streaming.

DG

Thanks, I am gradually getting a clearer picture!

1. I am slightly confused when you say that nothing is loaded into RAM during playback. Surely when streaming samples from disk the samples must be loaded into RAM for the VI to then use them?

NB I intend to get 3 hard disks and spread the samples evenly amongst them.

2. I am still not clear as to the hardware spec I need to run trouble free (cores, RAM etc.). Please can you tell me the specifications of your set up to help guide me on this.

regards

Jonathan

p.s do you have a web site where I can listen to your music?

The pre-load of samples is done before you playback. During playback no more is loaded into RAM; the VI Player streams the rest of the sample from disc. If it was loaded into RAM during  playback the RAM usage would go up dramatically.

My specs are in my sig.

DG

Thanks I think I understand you now!

Sorry to be thick but how do I access your sig?!!

regards

Jonathan

 Its the blurb that appears after each of my posts. [;)]

 I'm not getting any blurb after your posts or anyone else's posts!!! Is there some magic switch I need to turn on?

regards

jonathan

Try reading the information that appears - not in 'bold' - between DG's instance of the word 'blurb' and yours in the last two posts before mine... O.K. O.K. even easier - read the first seven (7) (VII) lines of text that appear in DG's post following the lowest instance of the acronym 'DG' on the page up to your last post. [Hint: It starts with 'Nuendo 4.3']

 I think there is something wrong with my profile or my browser as there are zero lines of text between DG's "blurb" and my "blurb" [:(]

This is the configuration of my study. Welcome to VSL community. [Y]

This is the configuration of my study. Welcome to VSL community. [Y]

This is the configuration of my study. Welcome to VSL community. [Y]