I love VSL products, but the web site is HORRIBLE!

[macronencer]

Almost every time I visit the VSL main site to buy something or check something, I have a dismal user experience. When I try to do things, it constantly behaves in ways I am not expecting, based on my customer experience at other sites.

Today was the worst!

I ordered VE Pro download, was taken to the checkout, selected PayPal and submitted the order. In paypal I entered my password and proceeded as normal - but then I was suddenly returned to the VSL main site (language selection page). I am still not sure whether my payment went through, but I think my order DID, because when I tried to submit it again from customer area / Orders I was told that the number was not unique and that it had probably already been submitted.

I have not received any email, nor can I find any files to download.

In desperation, I tried clicking on the VE Pro "TRY" button, in the hope of getting a download. Unfortunately that just gave me an activation key for the demo.

I still can't find any "downloads" page on the site. Where on Earth is it?

Frankly, I'm disgusted with this web site and it is long overdue for a complete re-design. It is far too quirky to use and does not follow very many of the correct UI design principles that customers have dome to expect (e.g. "Here's what you should do next..."). The product range is also confusing for new users. Several people I know (including myself) who have bought Vienna products, have had to go and double-check with previous customers to find out which ones they need to buy and make sure they don't get the wrong ones.

Now it's a Sunday morning and I'm stuck without my expected VE Pro download. I'm not happy.

[macronencer]

UPDATE: I just got an email for my accidental order of the VE Pro DEMO. This contained a download link which took me to User Area / Software - I really am not sure why, but I could NOT find this page just by looking. So it looks as if I can download the products now. Then I will just have to sort out the broken order. Progress at last! Kind of.

[Paul]

Welcome macronencer [:)],

and thanks for the cheerful sunday opening thread!

I agree that the website can be improved (and it will be), and of course there´s always room for improvements in other areas.

"USER AREA" contains all files you need , depending on your purchased products. It starts with a friendly and informative Welcome note that displays all information you need.

PayPal is a new payment method in our webshop, there may be some bumps on the way. I´m sure that you will get assistance from our sales team very soon, it´s just that on a very sunny sunday like this even my VSL coworkers take a little time off.

Thanks for your patience and understanding in advance,

Paul

[Stefan]

Hi Macronencer,

I just replied to you via email, please check your mailbox!

Best wishes,

Stefan

[macronencer]

Thank you Stefan and Paul for your replies (and Stefan for your help). Sorry to spoil your sunny Sunday :-| For general information: Stefan is helping by email now, but I am not having any luck yet. Everything I try seems to send me back to the home page (language selection). Is there anyone else here who has used PayPal with success? I'd be interested to know. I'm using Safari on Mac, by the way.

[macronencer]

All sorted now - I had to use Firefox - seems to be a Safari problem, but I'm sure we'll hear more from Vienna before long about that. Thanks for your help Stefan!

[mpower88]

I really like it for the most part ;)

[FredB]

Sorry if i'm a bit off subject,

This tread let me think about someting I have observe for many years using Vienna software and surfing their web site.

I'm a VSL power user...

and a Mac power user for years.

I'm really a VSL fan for their soundbanks and software ergonomy. I really think it's the only company who sized the workflow of doing an orchestral mockup. Everything else seems non-professional besides it. Really!! In a professionnal way I am stucked with it.

NOW

The web site have alway's been quirky on safari (can't log in) and completely incompatible on mobile Iphone OS but this was not something that stop me to work with VSL product. 

The big thing is that I have the feeling that they pay less attention to mac users in general since they start building their own software. Their web site is a minor thing but their softwares seems to be misadapted to mac platform. Plus the Elicenser that spend so much time to load and forced so many reboots. I have spend way to much time troubleshooting VE Pro or Elicenser that don't see my USB dongle. Sometimes I realy feel like I'm a beta tester. It's been a long time I wanted to say this but, Please VSL, spend as much efforts on mac's that you do to PC's.

I have the feeling that I'm alway's a year late on the PC version. And please don't blame Mac hardware or software cause there are so many complex professional software that are built or adapt for Mac. Think about Avid, Pro Tools, Final cut, Logic and Adobe's... People i have worked with use Mac's for professionnal movie editing, graphic stuff, photo editing and other complex works. Yes I have some bugs on those others softwares, but It's not like I have to spend an entire day of work on it. 

I know their was limitations with 64bit on Leopard but after a year or so, where is MIR for Mac? Don't tell me to buy a PC please, their is no question. Anyway it's not a question of saying wich is better. It's the fact that you are developing and SALLING mac softwares, and for the same price. So why should it be better on the other side? Maybe it's not so better on the PC side but when I see the number of thread concerning Mac versions plus my own experience, that's my conclusion.

Sorry for my approximate english.

I think VSL is the best!

I just want It to be the best of mac software.

fred

[DG]

@Another User said:

I know their was limitations with 64bit on Leopard but after a year or so, where is MIR for Mac? Don't tell me to buy a PC please, their is no question. Anyway it's not a question of saying wich is better. It's the fact that you are developing and SALLING mac softwares, and for the same price. So why should it be better on the other side? Maybe it's not so better on the PC side but when I see the number of thread concerning Mac versions plus my own experience, that's my conclusion.

  

The problem with MIR, as I understand it, was not just a software problem, but also a hardware problem. I'm sure that when MIR Pro is released, there will be a Mac version along the line. There is nothing to stop you buying a PC (or even a Mac running Windows) and running MIR on a second computer now. In any case I doubt that your current computer would be powerful enough to run MIR, never mind MIR and Logic at the same time.

DG

[Animus]

I have to agree for new visitors and users the VSL website is rather dauting and confusing.  I have an understanding of it now but it took awhile.

[musos]

I have a problem with the VSL forums, which I raised in this thread:

VSL website does not work on an iPad

I was forced to use an iPad for 2 months after undergoing back surgery, and it was impossible to post to the forums from the iPad. I had no such problems with other forums which I visit.

Perhaps the forums (and website?) need a complete re-think......

[The Minstrel]

The website could indeed improve in terms of user friendliness. From a webdeveloper perspective, having a site with complex functionality work in every browser on every platform is, well, perhaps not unheard of, but, rather unusual, at least in my humble experience, both as a user and webdeveloper.

[Paramite]

Hi, I realize I'm new on the website and also a new VSL user. However, I also find the website design horrible. Don't get me wrong, it looks good and the code works alright, but when a new user, like me, is trying to find something, it's an absolute nightmare. When I first heard about Vienna Imperial I actually had to google it, because the site was so badly organized. It still is. Even when I had used this site for a couple of months, bought Vienna Imperial and started to look for updates, it was still a major pain in my personal ass. I knew I would find them in the User Area, but where's the good old "Updates" button? Of course I eventually found what I was looking for, but it could have been so much easier. You really need to figure out a LOGICAL way how the web site works, so even a new user can find what he's looking for. -Miika

[Ege]

VSL reminds me of Adobe of a couple of years ago.  Great engineers talking to one another, leaving customers out of the conversation.  I DO find the website confusing -- try finding a video tutorial easily, for example. 

Or try searching for a particular audio demo file.  Example: I am interested in their reduced price offer and was trying to find the Schindler's List demo, which I remembered hearing and liking.  Try typing "Schindler" into the search field on the top right of their web page.  Zip. Nichts. Yes you can find it after several minutes search.

And then we have the Vienna Instrument, a big improvement over the old EXS method of loading instruments in Logic.  When VI came out, it was very poorly explained -- I just dropped the idea for a while, not KNOWING WHAT TO DO WITH IT.   So VSL has lost sales from me, because they didn't explain what this new product would do for me.  Maybe if your expert in MIDI and have been composing for a decade on Logic going back to its German origins, maybe then no explanation is necessary.  How many people fit that definition?

And while we are on the subject of explanations, how about the term "Velocity Crossfades"?  Sounds like something you do with a Porsche in a turn.  Yes, I know that in midi "velocity" is the method by which the speed of striking a keyboard is translated into the loudness or volume of the particular key as it will be recorded -- the quicker the strike, the louder the tone.  But how do you "crossfade" loudness, why not just reduce the velocity?  Well, what is NOT explained is that instruments have been recorded at different levels of loudness on the same note; their timbre changes with loudness at the same pitch.  So we are achieving greater fidelity by changing the layer of the instrument as its loudness changes.  That is what "Velocity Crossfades" is about, I think.  I figured this out about two months ago.  That is what the "VelLay" notation is on the instruments, the number of loudness layers.  Do we find this in the manuals?  Here is the explanation in the Vienna Instruments manual:

"The Velocity x-fade button switches global velocity crossfading on or off. The Vel xf slider below shows the current status of the controller. These two controllers allow you to switch from normal velocity layer changes (MIDI note-on velocity) to crossfading via controller where you can play at the velocity of your choice regardless of the strength of the keystroke." Why would you bother?  Not explained.

We are not told, as far as I have been able to determine, from VSL itself at what point in the 0 - 127 midi scale the switch occurs, so we can see, when we are composing, whether it would make sense to use the cross fade function, or not worry about it, because our notes are not crossing a volume threshold into one of the other volume layers of the instrument.  See if the VSL video tutorial on this subject explains this, assuming I am more or less correct in my explanation.

And, again, back at the website, have you tried to watch a VSL video using streaming mode?  I am able to watch youtube, bbc, and other news site videos generally fine.  Without fail, there are long, LONG waits, pauses and hiccups in the video material coming from VSL.  It always seems to stop at the crucial moment of Paul's explanation.  Result:  you have to download the video file, another long wait.  PITA.  Perhaps you folks in Austria get a better signal, being close to home.  Not good.

They have a great, sophisticated product.  Why are they hiding it?  Who benefits except an exclusive few? 

I go on:  Where are the practical tutorials showing step-by-step installation and basic use on popular software platforms like Logic and Pro Tools?  "To get up an running, first you do this, then this, etc."  They have done as much for their confusing licensing key.  You have to dig all this stuff out on use with software like Logic, the best stuff being a few available videos on youtube. 

Where is the "Support" section of the website with seachable knowledge documents on technical issues?  You have to sort through a forum hoping someone asked the right question and guessing the rights words to search for. True, for those who have the temerity you can send an email to corporate headquarters, and they do respond promptly, to their credit.  But it is embarassing to ask, and one really does feel reluctant to occupy the time of some really senior people who answer these emails, with basic questions.

And my last example:  there is a podcast that you can get through iTunes called "VSL podcast"  Terrific!  Except the fellow who runs it stopped broadcasting last year and there are only a lttle more than half a dozen episodes available from iTunes.  But here's the example:  in one of the most recent episodes, an established composer for films is interviewed.  He uses VSL instruments!  He is asked about the VSL products he uses.  It was the instruments before the Horizon series!  This important composer, interviewed on "VSL podcast" in 2009, was unaware of the new 24 bit instrument collection or Vienna Instruments server, or any of the other software tools available from this company.  I think the program host was embarassed to let him know he was using old software.  You would think the composer would know the latest developments and be part of VSL's marketing group, the way Steinway and Yamaha do with their pianos.  Again, customers, ideal customers, in the dark, on VSL's own program.

There are many great, impressive things about VSL, but website and documentation user friendliness is not among them.

End of rant ....

Kind regards, Steve

[jammusique]

I agree that lots more video could be done by VSL people, to explain all the detailss of the libraries, and the ways to go about working with them. A model in this would be all the video that Eric Persing himself did explaining RMX & later Omisphere.

VSL has undoubtedly lost lots of customers who are scared away before buying, by the lack of user friendly info. [B]

[Raymonde]

@Steve_DC said:

VSL reminds me of Adobe of a couple of years ago.  Great engineers talking to one another, leaving customers out of the conversation.  I DO find the website confusing -- try finding a video tutorial easily, for example. 

There are many great, impressive things about VSL, but website and documentation user friendliness is not among them.

End of rant ....

Kind regards, Steve

[G]

Thanks Steve, I was beginning to feel like I was the only one out there who was experiencing what you are and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for coming out with this.

I have this fictional book I am writing about a consumer uprising that takes place around the world as consumers take back their rights: Frustrated customers gather together and oversee the invitation of the Execs and producers at East West Soundsonline, Native Instruments, Steinberg and VSL (and Logic, Pro Tools, Sonar, too for good measure), provide them all with luxurious accommodations at one of Europe's finest resorts and then hold  them all there until they came out with user documentation, support websites and manuals that match what Microsoft and Microsoft  Press have done for Excel and Word.

http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Excel-2000-Step/dp/1572319747/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281743378&sr=1-1

I wish VSL had a book like this but also NI, East West and Steinberg need to put one out. They need very badly to put out their version of this book.  A beginner spends more time overcoming basic user issues than anything else and music production takes a back seat. Look at the web sites for VSL and Steinberg and look at how many horrendous examples there are of folks lost because the makers of the goods turned their backs to the customer on the morning the software was marketed out into the stores. 
What is wanted is a didactic, pedagogical style in writing  (no videos PLEASE) that has as its basic premise one thing.

A list of how to do things.

Instructions

In

 

A list

Yes a list.

First

 do

    this.

Next,

   do

      this.

Step three, do this.

I would ask the reader to look at the book on Amazon's website listed above.

It is loaded with over 300 pages of explanations all done in this list format  followed by hundreds of examples. Steinberg is the worst at not understanding the value of having examples and loads their manual with hypothetical examples that are not grounded in concrete descriptions and fails to  connect examples  from one chapter to the next. No working on projects of Steinberg!

"Ha ha You poor slobs, Go Pro and hire an engineer"

  Logic is the best at carrying on about high flown, abstract theoretical examples that have no connection to the real world also. However, Steinberg is on this abstract wavelenght also, I would invite any of the readers of this tirade who are users of Cubase to turn to the chapter on the Logical editor in the Cubase user manual and imagine themselves faced with users who have 10 weeks of experince and see if they could make the Logical Editor do anything useful. Oh, but was I supposed to be software engineer before I use this stuff? Not according to the marketing hype![:@]

VSL does OK with the documentation for their products but only just. Again, I would invite the authors of VSL's documentation to take the book I have referenced above and produce something similar for the VSL products.

What is needed is a single volume, one source, in hand, that will allow the user to go beyond the beginning user state  to the edge of being a professional user; all of this  is to be in one book. I am aware that there are differences between using a spread sheet and using VST software but the principle for a user's manual is still the same.

Didactic

Pedagogical

Clear

Foolproof.

East West is lost in the Antarctic realms waiting for the effects of  global warming to release them, somehow their products reach the market from that vantage point but their location in that distant area would explain why not only does their stuff not work but they can't explain how it should work if it was ever going to really work.

The technology behind all of these products, (maybe even Microsoft's) is so hush and mysterious because it is not explained to the users by the engineers who made it. This is terribly unfair.  I purchase additional user manuals that I feel should be supplied with the purchase of the software  and yes all the software companies in the world fall down on this one-Adobe is about the best right now for looking up solutions on line. I understand paper manuals are passé so I can look up on line but again, the four Beasts of the VST world mentioned above are way behind Adobe and Microsoft. The reason for that is clear: an executive decision has been made to ignore the customer and to allow them to stumble along. After all, a professional arranger will have engineering resources to tap into that the amateur will not have so we, us music makers of the rabble, are left to munch on rinds and discards where ever we can take them.

[Raymonde]

Somehow this appeared twice.

[denis]

@Steve_DC said:

There are many great, impressive things about VSL, but website and documentation user friendliness is not among them.

I must agree with you Steve. Your examples are spot on. I really feel left alone in the latest Airbus: amazing technology, potentially the best aircraft in the world, but they forgot to tell me how to fly the beast!!

[Raymonde]

@jammusique said:

VSL has undoubtedly lost lots of customers who are scared away before buying, by the lack of user friendly info.

Almost scared away the customers that are committed to using it[what is otherwise a sterling product] as well; I struggled for many weeks to learn about the use of the articulations and still am not sure how all of them can be utilized.

I think software makers should hire professional educators who know that there is a difference between abstact principles and applications of those principles. In a perfect world announcing the theory of how something works would suffice for anyone to step up and use it. But this is not a perfect world.

To put another angle on this, all engineers who have graduated from university have taken classes along these line-physics then applied physics-math, then applied math. But the poor unfortunate who has not had an engineering background will know little of this whole process.

[RefugeDenied]

Reviving an old thread ...

First thing I would do in a re-design is ditch the fixed height and overflow control in #content_all_CS.  Can't middle-click scroll in a div with a fixed height (I don't have a mouse, I use a pen tablet).  Also, pressing 'Enter' on your keyboard (to drop down a line when replying, for instance) returns your view to the top of the fixed height div.  Why not just let the page flow down and let the browser handle the main content scroll like most sites?