Re: Watermarking

VSL has evaluated advanced watermarking technologies several times. For our needs in the context of high-quality orchestral samples and related software products, the technology has a few problems:

- A sample may undergo ten or more audio processing steps, before being mixed with dozens of other audio signals. As soon as the strength of the watermark is anywhere near the robustness which is necessary to "survive" in a scenario like this, it is already degrading the fidelity of the actual sample. That's not what VSL is after. ;-)

- Tracking down watermarks makes sense for broadcasting (especially web-radio) where it is useful for royalty and billing purposes. There are no comparable business models for our needs.

- Even if we assume the theoretical chance that watermarked samples would be traceable, it is more or less impossible and (most of all) completely uneconomic to take legal action in each case where misuse is suspected. ("... invest time in sueing guys who distribute the samples and and guys who use it", as Gabriel put it in the previous message.)

- Good (and especially individualized) watermarking technology is much more costly than common dongle-based copy protection.

- Copy protection not only protects our products actively against piracy, but also the investments of our customers. Watermarking alone can't do that, especially as it can't protect software, just "content".

In other words - no watermarking in VSL samples.

Kind regards,

@passenger57 said:

Is it the policy of VSL to replace a damaged or failing Vienna key if that key is returned? If thats the case I'd feel much better about making a big purchase.

I can't speak for VSL, but if your out of warranty dongle was damaged, and returned to them, and they did not restore your licenses to a new dongle that you provided, I think they would be out of business if this became public. I know of NO developer that will not replace authorizations on legitimately damaged dongles.

Loss or theft is something different.

But if the dongle simply fails, the developers have tools to verify the dongle is yours, and I can't imagine that any developer would not solve the failed dongle issue quickly.

As far as I've read around in the community I think there should be no problem with Vienna regarding the broken dongle: I think that once you send it back and get a new key they allow to transfer the licenses to the new key. Not all companies allow this but as far as I know Vienna does.

The problem is rather with the stolen/lost keys and whether there would be a method do give some peace of mind to the paying costumer.

Cheers,

Cesare

Dear Dietz,

It sounds like you can speak in name of Vienna. I do see your point about watermarking being very little resistant to further audio processing. Could you also tell us about Vienna point of view on the Wave TLC solution? or if they are thinking about other solutions?

One more thing. After my experience with the key system, I think that the argument that the key is there "to protect my interest as a costumer" feels quite weird. I really haven't gained anything from the key, it just costed me a lot of money. So I would kindly ask Vienna to stop using it as an argument since it almost feels offensive. If it is made in my interests let me chose whether and how to use it. Please, understand my point of view.

Best,

Cesare

@cesare.magri said:

Dear Dietz,

It sounds like you can speak in name of Vienna. I do see your point about watermarking being very little resistant to further audio processing. Could you also tell us about Vienna point of view on the Wave TLC solution? or if they are thinking about other solutions?

Cesare,

I can only speak for Vienna as long as questions about audio-engineering and -development arise. As pointed out, watermarking affects audio-quality (amongst other issues), that's why I felt in charge to reply.

That said, I positively know that VSL support is _very_ obliging when it comes to dongle-related problems. Most of the time a mail is sufficient. Trust for trust.

Excuse me, but this is an extremely shortsighted POV.

In a time while everybody and his aunt has access to myriads of cracked (read: stolen) software products, I see it as a BIG benefit for all paying customers (and especially professionals) that the tools they paid for are NOT available for free to John Doe next door. The day WILL come where this guy will get a certain job just because he can do it cheaper. This is where intact copy protection helps to protect _your_ investment. I can't see anything "weird" in it. Being an audio engineer for almost a quarter of a century now, I've seen non only one, but dozens of colleagues and partners stranding during the last decade or so, just because scumbags with "studios" full of cracked software were able to underbid their fees.

And no, I won't stop telling people the in's and out's of copy protection, thank you very much. If you feel offended, then there's not much I can do about it.

Ciao,

Dear Dietz,

Thank for your reply.

The point of view you present might partially apply to professionals. However, since the introduction of SE, Vienna has been also targetting hobbiests like me. As an hobbiest, I do gain no money from Vienna. A dongle:

- costs me money to buy

- slows down the code

- takes one of my USB ports

- I need to remember to bring it with me

- If I loose it I have to pay loads of money

- If they steal it I have to pay loads of money

- If it brakes I have to pay little (but still why?) money to send it and to get a new one

Since I don't make a single euro out of Vienna tell me: where do the benefits of the dongle lie?

So, if what you say might be (partially) true for professionals, that is far from truth for a large number of people. Given the fact that we understand that people at Vienna have to protect their work too, I think that what most of the users on this forum are asking is to be given a chance to choose at least with a system like Waves. Users are making a step torward the needs of the company: we will still have a USB port busy, we will buy the dongle and have to use it each time. Now that you have launched SE you cannot only think in terms of professionals. Please try to make a step torward these requests.

All the best,

Cesare

Cesare, the discussion is fruitless.

If you follow your argument stringently, you could also ask "Why do I have to buy a computer", "Why do I have to buy monitors", "Why do I have to buy a keyboard", etc. just for making music. Regarding your argument "I need to remember to bring it with me" ... a drummer has to remember to bring his sticks, too.

Even if you don't make a single Euro by making music, you (hopefully) gain something from doing so - joy, entertainment, artistic skills, whatever. For comparison: If you go for a holiday on a cruise ship, you will have to pay for it even if you don't earn any money from it. I bet that you don't want to pay the double amount of money just because the crew is too lazy to deny entry for stowaways who try to get in through the backdoor.

Apart from that: Please understand that companies like VSL have a potential user base that is only a fraction of the big players like Microsoft, Apple and the like. While it is possible for us to scale our products according to the different needs of our customers, it is still the same underlying technology they are founded upon, because the development costs for "another" code base would make the smaller products as expensive as the professional ones. See it as your benefit that you are able to get the same quality product (with reduced content) for considerably less money than the pros. You have to accept that you will get professional copy protection, too.

Dear Dietz,

Thanks again for the reply.

This discussion doesn't appear to be fruitless at all: Very nice information came out of these posts and I really thank people for sharing it! First of all we read that solutions ARE possible and have already been implemented by other companies. Second, it appears that the information concerning the dongle is indeed a bit concealed and does surprise many people. I still wonder why there is no red label on the Vienna key package warning the user of the limitation of the dongle that I've mentioned above, allowing the user to make the decision of returning the purchase before starting to use the software.

Whether it is convenient for Vienna to create SE I cannot possibly know and is not to up me to evaluate. Once again, nobody here has asked Vienna not to protect its interests by completely removing the software protection. But simply to think of and implement solutions to what is a considerable problem for many of its users.

Best,

Cesare

 Only just noticed this thread, and have to say I'm now a little concerned. I really don't mind dongles - the fact that you just plug them in and go is great. If every bit of software I own took the NI approach I would spend many more hours every time I rebuild my system.

But the notion that licenses are synonymous with the dongle I find disturbing. I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly positive that I wouldn't be able to find an insurance firm who will insure me for the theft of licenses. Any insurance firm with any sense will insist that a license, as something intangible, cannot be stolen, and should be re-supplied by the original issuer. So by taking the stance that they won't issue replacement licenses Vienna are asking us to invest in something that is completely uninsurable.

It also doesn't tally with the restritions placed on us as users. Under British law I'm fairly sure I'm entitled to transfer ownership of any physical item I own to another individual. If the licenses become synonymous with the dongle then I'm afraid there is nothing to stop me selling those licenses. If, on the other hand, the licenses remain untransferable, as Vienna would like to insist, then they are not synonymous with the dongle - they can no more be stolen than they can be sold. In which case, in the event of theft, responsibility to replace the physical dongle would fall to me, but the licenses are not gone, and Vienna should be responsible for restoring them.

Apologies if I missed somewhere in the thread, where this initial concern was resolved, but seriously guys, you can't have it both ways. Please sort your act out.

Dear Cesare,

Just as a sidenote: I'm amazed by your patience and ability to lead a potentially controversial discussion in a professional and respecting way like you've shown us in this thread; honoring the views of VSL and its Userbase.

My situation (nothing special but still worth mentioning):

Like you I absolutely DO understand VSLs PoV. Unfortunately the more my job and studies require a mobile workstation (nowadays working most of the time abroad), the more I'm forced to move away from VSL's recent products - which - to be honest - hurts pretty much if one considers the great sound quality of their strings products (I love the classic Strings package) and that I would like to support my home countries' sampling company.

The reasons are obvious why I don't dare to take the key with me - once I almost would have lost it -  well, I learned my lesson and have let it reside in my main computer since then. I'm just too afraid to lose it despite me barely being able to use it at home.

Luckily I'm also an owner of the original First Edition so that I can make use of the basic articulations in Logic on my MacBook Pro (but no performances); at least that helps to a certain degree. In fact I would have liked to take advantage of the students discounts this year again - buying the Solo Strings Bundle and by any chance Woodwinds I. After careful deliberation I came to the conclusion not to take the plunge because of not being able to use it when I'm mobile (it's just too risky).

Maybe one day I'll consider an insurance for the key (which probably would be too expensive anyway) but until then - who knows - maybe then VSL has put enough pressure on Steinberg (I think now it's Steinberg who are in charge of Synchrosoft Copy Protection) so that they could offer us a system that works Waves TLC alike.

Just my two cents.

All the best,

Hans-Peter

@Pingu said:

But the notion that licenses are synonymous with the dongle I find disturbing. I'm not an expert, but I'm fairly positive that I wouldn't be able to find an insurance firm who will insure me for the theft of licenses. Any insurance firm with any sense will insist that a license, as something intangible, cannot be stolen, and should be re-supplied by the original issuer. So by taking the stance that they won't issue replacement licenses Vienna are asking us to invest in something that is completely uninsurable.

I have my studio equipment insured in the UK, including dongles and the licences held on them (via a specialist music equipment insurance company). They will also cover the equipment out of the studio environment upon request. You just need to do a bit of Googling.

M

Martin, how much do you think would a dongle insurance cost for a library? I don't mean the exact price, just a rough estimate. This might be interesting information, to give us an idea of what's the range of additioanl costs we might need to take into account when we purchase a library if the dongle system stays as it is. Also, would the insurance be valid if you carry your dongle around?

Many thanks in advance,

Cesare

Hi Cesare,

I don't know if this has been talked about since i did not read the past few pages, and I have been away from all forums for a while. My apologies if it has.

I would like to reply to your comment about the "key protecting your interests as a customer" comment. 

If VSL products we cracked sales would plummet, VSL's profits would plummet, their ability to produce libraries and software would dramatically be reduced, and in the end they would have to raise prices to make up for the loss, which would reduce many people's ability to purchase their amazing products.

Whether you are a pro or not, if they were forced to raise their prices then certainly only pro's or wealthy musicians would be able to afford it. Thats a very small percentage of buyers. That would lead VSL to lay off people, not upgrade their recording hardware as needed and sometime down the road their products will suffer and they would go out of business.

My sympathies to those who lose their dongles. I don't have a solution for that issue but I definitely don't want to see a solution that reduces quality of the products or VSL's financial stability. In the end, good copy protection is in the customer's best interest, its keeps the price of the products down and the quality up.

My 2 cents.

Regards,

DM33

In context, I was speaking about the price going up because of people cracking software, thus making the software even more expensive then it is now to make up for the loss in revenue.

A quick Google search brought this up:

https://www.musicproinsurance.com/InstEquip.aspx

Line 2 of policy details covers software:

Coverage includes:*

• Worldwide coverage for the instruments and equipment on your list for up to (but no more than) the replacement value
• $5,000 in computer hardware and software, additional coverage can be added
• $5,000 for valuable papers included for no additional premium
• $25,000 for newly acquired property (up to 30 days)
• $25,000 for borrowed property (up to 30 days). Claim must be reported within 48 hours
• $2,500 per day up to $25,000 for rented reimbursement when equipment is rented to substitute equipment involved in a coverage loss (lost or repair)
• Replacement property is covered up to the value of the property being repaired due to a covered loss (loaner)
• If you have been paid for lost, stolen or misplaced property and the property is recovered by the carrier, you have the option to return the claim payment and repurchase the property.
• Full coverage for earthquake damage in California
• $100 deductible per loss (not per item)

I'm really starting to see the two worlds interacting in these post. Let's see if it is possible to make one world understand the other and to propose a solution that satisfies both worlds. Please let me know if what I write below is wrong.

On world is made by professionals who make a living out of Vienna products. For these people samples are an investment and the dongle is a part of the studio equipment: it usually lies protected (and sometimes insured) in the studio. For professionals the annoyance of having to use the dongle is well compensated by the fairness that comes from the warranty that competitors will also have to make the investment of buying the software in order to produce music of the same quality. Some hundreds of euro/dollar invested in an insurance will hopefully come back in the form of contracts and in the peace of mind that comes from insuring a piece of your own future. For the professionals this investment is so important that it is hard for him/her to understand why someone would go around with the dongle in his pockets.

The other world is made up by all those who use Vienna only for pleasure. These are the hobbyists who, in the name of their passions for music, are willing to take shorter holidays or save on something else and buy these these exquisite technological tools for composition. For these people a hundred dollar to be added in an insurance makes a big difference. Additionally they'll probably use the tools in their spare time. Maybe even when they travel, on a train or on a plane (I know that these places are noisy but everyone tries to make the most out of the time he has :-). Their studio is probably a laptop and a pair of headphones and they enjoy very much having their friends and family listen to their works, however most likely no money is going to come back from their productions. The hobbyist just wants to use his product easily in the little available time. There is essentially no advantage for the hobbyist in having a dongle, it is just an annoyance.

Since the release of SE Vienna explicitly also started targeting the world of the hobbyists. It is Vienna itself who makes mobility one of the attractive points of SE by describing it as the "esource-saving companion for orchestral arrangements on the laptop, or for newcomers to the world of Vienna Instruments". However the copy protection solution is the same as for the professional products. Maybe an alternative solution could be introduced only for this chearper segment of products, what do you think? A Waves-like system is essentially the current Vienna-key system but with the added variable of time-limitation: instead of generating perpetual licenses, temporal ones are saved on the key. Having to download a license every month would indeed be an annoyance to the professional whose dongle is already safe. But 3 minutes for downloading a license once a month would be no hassle to me, to the hobbyist, if this allows him the peace of mind of not having to worry that the money he saved will be lost together with a blue piece of plastic.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Cesare

@cesare.magri said:

Having to download a license every month would indeed be an annoyance to the professional whose dongle is already safe. But 3 minutes for downloading a license once a month would be no hassle to me, to the hobbyist, if this allows him the peace of mind of not having to worry that the money he saved will be lost together with a blue piece of plastic

I'd be really happy with a system like that. I really can't afford separate insurance for my dongles, nor should I have to, when there are systems around that could protect both my, and Vienna's, interests.

As I've said before Steinberg did agree to look into the possibility of having a monthly authorisation for the dongle, but so far nothing has come of it. I would obviously be totally against it, unless it was only an option and not compulsory.

DG

Cesare, I really appreciate all the energy you put into that topic, but I have the feeling that you tend to over-complicate things a bit. :-)

The ladies and gents of VSL support are known for their friendly and helpful attitude. Seemingly disastrous occurrences can be solved by a simple mail most of the time  - with significantly less bureaucratic hassles than you would have to go through when dealing with insurances (!) or elaborate download/time limited/challenge-response/hardware-based/otherwise nifty "self repairing" license schemes.

Believe it or not: VSL is not a bunch of greedy and malicious people with the only goal to torture and squeeze customers. Most - if not all - of us do this because we like to do it, and because we hope that other people could like our ideas too. While we can't please everybody with all aspects of our products, we try to find the common denominator between "technically advanced" , "musically inspiring" and "economically feasible". In the case of copy protection, we have what we have. In an ideal word, we wouldn't need one; without financial restrictions, we would have written our own (the PERFECT one, of course! ;-) ...); in Real Life, we have chosen the Synchrosoft  / eLicenser system because it is the smallest evil amongst all possible solutions (and a pretty safe one, too).

I know by now that you would like to read "You're absolutely right, we have to do it exactly the way you want us to do it". While this could happen in many feature- and sound-related discussions, I'm afraid that our elbowroom is tight as far as copy protection is concerned.  8-)

... that said, I'm just a sound guy, and maybe there are already other options I'm not aware of just behind the horizon.

Kind regards,