@cesare.magri said:

Martin, how much do you think would a dongle insurance cost for a library? I don't mean the exact price, just a rough estimate. This might be interesting information, to give us an idea of what's the range of additioanl costs we might need to take into account when we purchase a library if the dongle system stays as it is. Also, would the insurance be valid if you carry your dongle around?

Many thanks in advance,

Cesare

Hi Cesare,

Based on what I'm paying the cost of insuring a dongle with the Special Edition licences (both standard & extended) would cost £30 per year. This would increase to £45 if you wanted to take it out of your studio environment.

Also, like DG I too would hate to use 'phone-home' licencing on the eLicenser, but if the user could choose to switch between the two types of auths then it could solve the particular problem we're discussing.

M

@Pekay said:

What do I have to do to create a spare key that works?

There is no creating a spare key-VSL management will not allow that and the key is fool proof as far as cracking it. I wonder if there is not a better solution-Adobe verifies all software vis-a-vis a user computer-Adobe server link up. With each computer having a unique built-in ID -In My Humble Opinion that would be enough security for most folks.

@RainerL said:

To prevent misusage there can be a further limit that maximal 3 times a key can be reported as lost.

Any reasons against this suggestion?

Because VSL has no control over what Syncrosoft will or will not do as far as disabling the dongles. Sounds like a good solution to me though if Syncrosoft could be brought into the loop.

@DG said:

Steinberg has never been good at communicating with users, and are usually so dogmatic about things that if the idea doesn't come from their collective brain trust it is not usually implemented. 

finally, some one else who found Steinberg to be the way I found them ! I was beginning to wonder if it was just me because I have had great difficulty in getting help with Cubase issues and in 85% of the problem situations, I had to come up with my own solution.

This is an interesitng thread because my vienna key just died on me tonight, and I cannot tell you how pissed I'll be if they make me rebuy licenses because their cheap piece of plastic decided to stop working. However, it seems like people think that you can just send the key to Vienna and they will eventually give you something that works, which is nice. It's still weird that this information isn't documented anywhere, and it's also scary that at any point you could be put out of commission for however long it takes to ship a key back and forth (a week? a month??) at any given point through no fault of your own, but I guess that's the modern world for you. 

I've got to say, in addition to coming here for Vienna key support tonight, I was also looking into buying that nifty Vienna choir with the student discount... but I've gotta hold off for now, these license hassles just make the product not worth it. It's such a shame because they do such a good job otherwise. 

Oh, and follow up quesiton: if I order a new Vienna key, will that give me another 120 free starts? That could hold me over until VSL sorts out my Vienna Key issues (assuming they agree to take it back and give me the licenses again)

@mikezaz_27157 said:

This is an interesitng thread because my vienna key just died on me tonight, and I cannot tell you how pissed I'll be if they make me rebuy licenses because their cheap piece of plastic decided to stop working. However, it seems like people think that you can just send the key to Vienna and they will eventually give you something that works, which is nice. It's still weird that this information isn't documented anywhere, and it's also scary that at any point you could be put out of commission for however long it takes to ship a key back and forth (a week? a month??) at any given point through no fault of your own, but I guess that's the modern world for you. 

1. You should always have a spare key in case of breakages. Lesson learned, I hope. [;)]
2. If the key is just broken, then I'm sure that support will sort out some new licences. Have you contacted them?

DG

About all this half price, full price, for free if you buy something with the same value, trust or no trust discussion.

Just imagine what would happen if it would be known that VSL is replacing licenses for free (or for the price of a new dongle) when this dongle is lost or stolen ..

Unfortunately there will be abuse, there might be people who would abuse it only for themselve (it is much more convinient to have the licenses at home and in the studio without carrying the dongle) and there might also be some people who would claim stolen products in order to make a musical interrested friend happy ...

I am not happy with dongle protection at all  but if you want to work with this great product that's the price you have to pay ...

@DG said:

1. You should always have a spare key in case of breakages. Lesson learned, I hope.
2. If the key is just broken, then I'm sure that support will sort out some new licences. Have you contacted them?

DG

I didn't mention it here, but I do have a spare (Steinberg) key. As far as I know, it makes no difference because you can't have a license on two keys. 

I have contacted support, no answer yet, but that's not surprising cause I emailed on Saturday when it died. 

@mikezaz_27157 said:

I didn't mention it here, but I do have a spare (Steinberg) key. As far as I know, it makes no difference because you can't have a license on two keys. 

No of course you can't, but it means that as soon as VSL gets the old one back they can email you the codes for a new licence. They may even send you a time limited demo to tide you over.

DG

You say "of course you can't" as if it's obvious, but many companies, such as Sibelius, will allow you to have a license on two computers. It's certainly not unheard of in this industry.

If VSL ends up doing what you say they will ,I'll be very happy and it will seem quite reasonable, although again I'd prefer it if all this were documented and standardized somewhere (and it would benefit them, at the very least so that speculative threads like these don't need to exist)

@mikezaz_27157 said:

You say "of course you can't" as if it's obvious, but many companies, such as Sibelius, will allow you to have a license on two computers. It's certainly not unheard of in this industry.

Sibelius doesn't use a dongle though.

DG

@DG said:

Sibelius doesn't use a dongle though.

DG

Right, but a transfer system (either via offline transfer numbers or some kind of online system in the user area) would allow for a more painelss and streamlined system for when something went wrong. I've had things go wrong with my Sibelius transfers many times, but they've never left me high and dry, and I've always gotten an answer back promptly. I'm not saying that won't happen with VSL (apparently All Saint's Day is a holiday in Austria, so that probably explains their silence), it's just, again, it would be nice to know what their policy is on these things.

On an unrelated note, of course many of us know that Eliscener [i]has[/i] been cracked, and it's only a matter of time until some major group turns their attentions to VSL and develops some kind of activation gen. Pretty much nothing is crack proof these days.

I do also sometimes wonder how companies like Sibelius or Notion deal with their "weaker" copy protection system. I tru to imagine what a nightmare it would be if I had to plug a dongle for each software I own: my laptop would look like huge USB hub.

I think that the Synchrosoft system has also long been cracked. Clearly all these system can be violated. However DON'T think this is the point! I think that the goal here would be to together try to propose something reasonable that might help solving at least part of the hassle of having to deal with the key while allowing the company to be safe and protected. My feeling, and I might be wrong, is that Vienna is not doing exactly everything that could be done to help the user easing the pain of the dongle.

Martin,

The dongle insurance price in England seems indeed good: does it also cover loss? Is it international (i.e. can you bring the key in a foreign country)? I wonder whether there is anything like this in Germany. However, still, the idea of having to get an insurance for a software sounds really a bit excessive to me, independently of the price.

Cesare

Alright, I got a response RE: my broken dongle:

" If the warranty period is already over, you can purchase replacement licenses for USD 30.00 per license + a handling fee of USD 10.00. As you've got 5 licenses on this key (Special Edition, Soprano Choir, Alto flute, Epic Horns and Special Edition Strings PLUS), the replacement licenses would cost USD 160, including the handling fee."

Hmmmm…… that's kind of a lot of money for software I've already bought.

@mikezaz_27157 said:

Alright, I got a response RE: my broken dongle:

" If the warranty period is already over, you can purchase replacement licenses for USD 30.00 per license + a handling fee of USD 10.00. As you've got 5 licenses on this key (Special Edition, Soprano Choir, Alto flute, Epic Horns and Special Edition Strings PLUS), the replacement licenses would cost USD 160, including the handling fee."

Hmmmm…… that's kind of a lot of money for software I've already bought.

You're kidding? They are charging per license for a broken dongle? I smell another wup-ass experience coming on. (go to the DUC, search "wup-ass" and then see what waves did within about 18 months.)

Stuff breaks, and the dongle is simply the container for the licenses. The license did not fail. VSL is going to have to evaluate this if they don't want a customer backlash, similar to what waves had to experience.

all I can say is, wow. this makes waves old policy look like a gift.

Dear VSL: please show us one other software company anywhere in the world that charges the customer PER LICENSE for a replacement license in the case of a failed dongle, and the dongle is physically returned to the developer. Are you guys just making this shit up as you go, or have you thought this through?

Jee whiz. 😞

@mikezaz_27157 said:

Alright, I got a response RE: my broken dongle:

" If the warranty period is already over, you can purchase replacement licenses for USD 30.00 per license + a handling fee of USD 10.00. As you've got 5 licenses on this key (Special Edition, Soprano Choir, Alto flute, Epic Horns and Special Edition Strings PLUS), the replacement licenses would cost USD 160, including the handling fee."

Hmmmm…… that's kind of a lot of money for software I've already bought

 That's why it's utterly pointless Dietz claiming that they're not money-grabbing. I have to repeat that a license is just permission to use something - which can't be lost, stolen, or expire. I can kind of understand Vienna's thinking (although it's still flawed) in wanting more money for licenses where you'ce let the dongle fall into someone else's hands, but this is just downright wrong. You've paid for permission to use the samples, and there is absolutely nothing in their blurb about that permission ever expiring. The dongle may die, but that isn't what you paid for. Vienna are hoping to create a belief that the dongle and license are one and the same thing, which is simply not true. In cases like this, where you still actually have the dongle, and it can be verified that the licenses were on it, they have absolutely no grounds to charge you again. I'd love to hear them explain what the charge is for. A handling fee I can understand, but that should be it.

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@Pingu said:

I'd love to hear them explain what the charge is for. A handling fee I can understand, but that should be it.

That's easy.

We have to pay these license fees to Steinberg/Syncrosoft for all needed additional licenses.

By the way, if the dongle dies because of a malefunction of the dongle itself (not damaged by the user) within the product guarantee period, all needed new licenses are of course replaced for free.

best

Herb

@Pingu said:

I'd love to hear them explain what the charge is for. A handling fee I can understand, but that should be it.

That's easy.

We have to pay these license fees to Steinberg/Syncrosoft for all needed additional licenses.

By the way, if the dongle dies because of a malefunction of the dongle itself (not damaged by the user) within the product guarantee period, all needed new licenses are of course replaced for free.

best

Herb

Hi Herb,

I certainly wouldn't say you guys are money grubbing or whatever, very far from it. I've loved your software for the three or so years I've used it (except of course for the nasty dongle problems that all Mac and Logic users seem to experience from time to time, but that's once again the fault of the dongle, and perhaps Apple, not of your company). Even before I owned the software I loved it - throughout high school I used to check up on the VSL page every week or so to be amazed by the demos you guys were putting up. It was a serious thrill to get enough extra scholarship money from my college to finally be able to afford the Special Edition back in 2007. 

However, as a student, this arrangement simply seems to be pricing me out of VSL. I had ideas of slowly acquiring all of your various instruments by reinvesting money I had earned through film scoring, which I've already started to do last year (hence why I have 5 licenses instead of the 1).

I suppose knowing what I know now, I would never keep more than 2 or so licenses on a single dongle, although this certainly seems daunting simply from a USB perspective (I'm sure pro users have one or more USB hubs devoted entirely to Vienna dongles). But also, I bought the software with the belief that I could use it with relative confidence for decades, maybe. Afterall, I'm still using the basic license I bought for software like Sibelius and Kontakt many many years ago (admittedly with upgrade fees every few years, but of course those fees are for new functionality). Hopefully you can see why this event has shaken my confidence in being a VSL consumer: until I'm at a point in my life where I can simply throw money at problems to fix them, it doesn't seem as unambiguously worth it as it did before.

I've been very impressed by your company's willingness to talk over these issues, and hope that it will continue.

Thanks,

Michael