Well that's an incredible coincidence, because I've just been corresponding with Paul Steinbauer about this issue (I just upgraded my library and I'm quite worried about this issue), and he said they are definitely looking into it. The problem is they depend on eLicenser to make the change. I think we should all put the pressure on them. As I said to Paul, surely if you can download a license you should be able to upload it for safekeeping? That way you could travel with dongle (sans licenses) and download them again when you reach your destination....

 @CBones- I'm not going to argue your central argument questioning the convenience and practical useability of the eLicenser, etc. But I must say you lost me a few times in your dissertation. One of them, and I still hesitate in trying to assert this, when you mentioned whatever you meant with the analogy with the iLok.

Not sure how acquainted you're with the details on any claim process involving an iLok, but it is almost as bad as speaking of an eLicenser. Not quite, but you still are completely at the developer's mercy to provide you or not with new licenses. Quite frankly, that is in fact a very bad citacion in this case.

I think a much more sound argument, of recent occurrence, is the way for instance Waves is getting out of the iLok system for a web-based solution.

@clruwe said:

 I've just been corresponding with Paul Steinbauer about this issue and he said they are definitely looking into it. 

THIS IS A GOOD NEWS 

Same thing here. I would have liked to get Instruments Pro, MRI and a whole bunch of download instruments but I will not invest anything anymore into something that needs to go on the dongle. Luckily, a lot of competitors are catching up in terms of quality and now there are excellent dongle-free alternatives to VSL. I am considering LASS, I am just waiting to see whether Notion 4 will support it. Obviously I would have preferred to have improve my initial investment with VSL rather than switching! But this post is years old and nothing has changed since it's creation. Same reasoning applies for Cubase, loads of features are intriguing but I won't switch to it as long as it stays dongle based...I prefer to wait for the next Logic...

Regarding the iLok, it is simply as bad as the Vienna Key (they are the same concept) with one significant difference though: EWQL stuff is much cheaper! EWQL gold, which would roughly correspond to VSL SE, costs 1/5 of SE (I saw that this month you can get it for 250 euros). For those prices I think one could bear the annoyance of the dongle. The Vienna Key policy and the lack of information reserved for costumers is simply too much for such an expensive product. With VSL it is like paying for a 5 stars hotel while getting the same service as a cheap Motel. However, again, now there are also many huge dongle-free alternatives.

Cesare

P.S.: I saw a small crack in my Vienna Key!!! Panic!!! I will have to order a new one fast or I might have to re-buy the whole thing!!! That would be a couple of thousand euros...

I am always nervous about all software protection, but we have to accept that software does need protecting. 

I think the dongle idea,  is the best way.  Take LASS for example - it uses Kontakt Player (yuk! - the one reason I wouldn't buy LASS !),  but this has to be authorised through the internet to NI,  this is computer specific, so you cannot move the licence to a different computer and use it there (like you can with the dongle) - it is tied to one computer.  And if in the future Native Instruments folded (they nearly did once),  you would never get LASS working ever again.  But with dongled software, even if VSL, Steinberg or EW went out of business - your software will still work on any computer.

As for what happens if the dongle fails,  then that is another issue which I am not going to get involved with, but I would encourage VSL to implement a stated maximum cost to reinstate the lost licences.

I agree with the above. A dongle is a good idea in principle. But with any company, even MICROSOFT! You get more than one license when you purchase their software. So if your computer blows up, you get burgled or your house goes up in flames you can reinstall all your stuff elsewhere. So the solutions are easy and obvious (I've discussed this with several experts in computer security and they are really simple to carry out):

1.- VSL should give two licenses with every product (only one can be activated at a time). Since if someone stole your dongle they wouldn't have any of the software anyway. VSL would block it, consequently no updates, support or anything. VSL wouldn't really lose anything, unless they are trying to profit from people's disasters, which I very much doubt.... These are nice people that love music and are a bit scared cause their Kontakt versions got hacked and you can find them everywhere on the Internet.

2.- RE-UPLOAD THE LICENSE!!! This is so obvious!!! If I bought a second license for all my VSL products and never bother downloading them to the eLicenser, they would be safe in the virtual world forever (I think). I mean come on people, we live in an era where we can access our bank accounts, move money around, pay online, store personal data, etc. all securely. Why can't we just store the damned licenses in some account? VSL or eLicenser provided....  Or even my Dropbox!

a few of you posting here should really go into the digital rights management business - your market success obviously would be overwhelming!

@clruwe said:

But with any company, even MICROSOFT! You get more than one license when you purchase their software.

this is simply not true (except their family products which come with 3 or 5 activations and office which can be installed on a desktop and a notebook, but you're not authorized to use both simultaneously).

i don't know if de-authorization of a computer works better meanwhile for kontakt, for adobe it is still a nightmare and if your harddisk died complicated to impossible.

how easy is it with a key - stick it on any other computer and run.

i personally also wouldn want to re-upload 30 or more licenses just to re-download them later having to rely on a working internet connection on both places ...

however: improvement of processes should always be possible.

This thread kind of comes and goes and I only half pay attention but somebody a few thousand or so posts ago (seems like doesn't it?) mentioned the idea of VSL being the insurer. 

I wonder if it is possible to have the option of paying VSL say 10 to 15% more on whatever product you buy then if something happens to your key, or whatever, you get one, and only one, reactivation of the licenses free of charge (except the cost of the dongle).  If you chose not to purchase the insurance when you first purchased the product, then you're screwed.  If you loose the key again after the reactivation, you're screwed.

Perhaps, if after loosing the key the first time and having your licenses reactivated, you wish to repurchase the insurance, VSL could charge a percentage of all of your previously purchased products at the VSL Store price of those products.  The more you have the more you would pay which is only fitting.  Perhaps something like 20%?  Loose the key yet again... you pay 30% for the insurance, Loose it again...  Well, I mean seriously, if you loose the key again after 3 times then you really are a complete scatter brained idiot and you have other issues to sort out.  But if that's the case then you pay more because scatter brained idiots are a higher risk. Right?

The insurance can only be purchased at the time of sale and at the time of reactivation in the event of a lost or stolen key.  So you can't loose your key, then buy the insurance after the fact.

This way, the risk and pain would be spread out more and, depending on your circumstances, you can choose whether to have piece of mind or not.  If you travel a lot with the dongle then it would behoove you to purchase the insurance.  If you don't travel and you don't think it's necessary then don't worry about it.

How 3rd party vendors and Elicensor fits into all of this, I don't know but... at least it's a way to spread the risk and pain.

 I did mention way back that, on the basis that if you buy a new dongle every two years then, you get renewed guarantee on the dongle, so you can get it replaced and licences replaced under guarantee - so I suggested just paying VSL £25 every two years (the cost of the dongle), to save swapping dongle and moving licences.

But 10% of the library cost is way too high,  my complete VSL collection was over £10,000 so your suggested 10% would cost me £1000 for the insurance !   You would be adding £80 to the cost of MIR Pro this way. The insurance would need to be around 1%, but perhaps with a minimum amount of say £25.

You can insure a £250,000 house for £250 (0.1%) or a £50,000 car for £500 (1%) - the house is low risk, the car is high risk.  A VSL dongle failure is very low risk.  I don't think VSL should ever be responsible for a lost dongle - only a dongle failure.

But of course,  VSL's dilemma, is that they have to come to an agreement with Steinberg over re-issuing codes for dongle, but there is no reason why the same codes couldn't be used again, and as VSL buy the dongle from Steinberg anyway, perhaps it is Steinberg who should be more cooperative in this. 

Well, I just threw the number 10% out as a 'for instance.'  I don't know how you acquired your library but not everybody can afford to buy The Cube in one shot.  In fact, I think most people just piecemeal their purchases and build their collections over time.  For us, it might be worth it to spend an extra 10% on the full solo strings collection which would only be another 40 or 50 bones as opposed to $1000.  For me, I would spend another grand if I had the assurance that I would have at least one reactivation if something were to happen to my key.

As mentioned before, getting affordable insurance for software here in the states is almost impossible.  We have to go to Loyd's of London and they're outrageous.  So, for me, it would be worth it to spend the extra grand on insurance if I where to buy $10,000 worth of stuff. 

I don't travel so my home owner's insurance would cover me in the event of fire or theft but for those in the states who travel frequently they would have to handcuff the dongle to their wrist and hire an armed escort where ever they go.

But you're right about Steinberg.  We could all be barking up the wrong tree here.  Some people have the mistaken notion that reactivating licenses is as simple as VSL picking up the phone and calling Steinberg and all will be taken care of.  Unfortunately, It's not that easy.  And if Steinberg won't agree to anything then all this talk is just pi$$ing in the wind.

At least this would be something temporary until better encryption technology is available. 

 Also,  insurance is paid every year, insurances are never a one off payment.

I think the protection solution will be in VSL dropping eLicenser.  Waves have gone over to an iLok free protection, and many others are dropping dongled protection as well. Maybe this is the direction VSL need to go,  so that they are in control of issuing/re-issuing licenses.

Perhaps they need to keep an eye on the Waves success on their new protection.  If it works, then that is the way to go.

Have you found an insurance company that is insuring imaterial things ?

mine wont ! it will insure only the dongle lost for it's price (20$!!!)

Best

Cyril

I have spent a few days at my parents house at the see for Easter. I would have had the time to carry on a bit with my music, finally. The place is bautiful and quiet. But I didn't dare to take the key with me...is this how we are supposed to enjoy a 1500 euro purchase?

Cesare

For those of you who haven't seen it, give a look at this:

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/30889.aspx

It left me speechless: 1500 euros to replace licenses on a BROKEN dongle!

It would be very helpful to know the average life-span of a Vienna key. At what age, for instance, have one percent of them failed? Five percent? Ten percent? What are the odds of a key lasting five years, or 10 years? This would make the decision of when (or whether) to replace a lot easier.

There must be a lot of keys out there, and it's hard to imagine the manufacturer doesn't have a handle on this.

--Mark Arnest

It seems to me that much of the frustration being vented in this thread is at least partially directed in the wrong direction.  VSL is really caught in the middle here.  They have to protect their assets, while at the same time dealing with both eLicenser and us, the customers.

If people were honest, the issue would simply not exist.  What is going on, in large measure, is that the hackers/cracked software users, in essence, are not just stealing from VSL, but also from us, the paying end users.  The real cost of theft is much higher than it appears at first glance.

@noldar12 said:

It seems to me that much of the frustration being vented in this thread is at least partially directed in the wrong direction.  VSL is really caught in the middle here.  They have to protect their assets, while at the same time dealing with both eLicenser and us, the customers.

If people were honest, the issue would simply not exist.  What is going on, in large measure, is that the hackers/cracked software users, in essence, are not just stealing from VSL, but also from us, the paying end users.  The real cost of theft is much higher than it appears at first glance.

Actually only a small part of the frustration is about the fee for restoring licenses, and only because the thread got slightly off topic. I think most of us get that Vienna have to pay eLicenser, and don't begrudge paying the fee - it would be nice if they would find a better solution, but it's not the priority.

Most of ths frustration is actually about the idea that, when your dongle is lost or stolen, the licenses are entirely lost. It would be so easy for Vienna to provide new licenses (for the nominal fee obviously), and there only seem to be two reasons why they wouldn't. One is that they believe the thief who has taken my dongle has started using it, and restoring my licenses would mean there is now one more Vienna user, but they have received no more money. That I can understand, but it's a massive improbability - most thieves would probably bin the dongle. The second line of thought would be that I am simply trying to get myself a second set of licenses, and the dongle isn't lost at all - this I find massively insulting. Why would I pay for the software once, and then suddenly become dishonest.

The original purpose of the thread was to point out that the notion of the dongle and license being the same thing is highly unfair, and also that it wasn't even pointed out anywhere in Vienna's documentation and advertising.

To be fair, the thread has turned up a number of cases where, at their discretion, VIenna have been at least a little helpful in the case of lost dongles. But the frustration is that it is entirely at their discretion. The dongle protects their interests entirely, but actually provides no protection for the user, even though we are the ones paying for it. Previous solutions have been somewhat random. For instance one user was told he could have new licenses (for the nominal fee) if he also bought more instruments, equal in value to those being restored. You can appreciate how this could be perceived as a little money-grubbing. If Vienna had believed he was being dishonest then the answer should have been a simple no; if not, then it should have been a simple yes; not yes, but only under a bunch of conditions we just thought up on the spot.

The point I've made in the thread, which they repeatedly refuse to grasp, is that, in all probability, their policy is illegal in the UK. In the UK I am allowed to sell any physical object that I own. If Vienna wish to make the license synonymous with the dongle then it becomes a physical object, and I am entitled to sell it on, despite the typical EULA for samples. If the license is not synonymous with the dongle, but remains intangible, then it can't be lost. The license is purely the permission granted me to use the samples, and can't possibly be stolen or lost. They can't have it both ways.

SO you see, most of the frustration is about this situation. The dongle system, as it stands, protects Vienna entirely, but creates a high-risk situation for honest users, and Vienna seem completely unwilling to work towards a better solution. The paying a fee for each license is far more understandable - although, again, it would be better if Vienna would work towards a solution where this isn't necessary. For some users restoring licenses could cost upwards of $1000, which has got to be a bit annoying.

I wasn't going to comment and prolong this, but I have to say - there is no frustration with VSL for professionals.  Only for amateurs like the people who created and sustained this thread.

I request that this thread be closed, because it is a bunch of misinformation and lies.  VSL uses industry standard copy protection and the people who made this thread don't like that.  So they attack the company.  It is totally wrong.

VSL is trying to be democratic and open, but they have no need to cater to this kind of garbage. 

William Dont judge a person until you walked in his/her shoes.

I can relate to some of these post. I can say VSl was really helpful getting mine replaced. When my don-gal fail for no reason. And i mean no reason! ( didn't use for a month because i moved. But since it was past the warranty i never heard it had a end date, i had to pay almost half the cost of the samples i already paid for. So yes some may be exaggerating a little. But closing this thread when people who already paid money to have a working product to have to pay again to get a few SN and USb to get there sample working , i can see why it hits a cord to some. I hope it never happen to you or anything worse. But don't talk or judge on something you never experienced.

But when you do pay the money they are really helpful and fast about getting everything fix, but until you pay $$$$.

Sorry William, just who the hell do you think you are? I've never read such arrogant crap.

Firstly Vienna need to cater for all their customers. If they sell to amateurs then they need to deal with the concerns of amateurs.You don't get to decide that the product was mainly meant for you.

Secondly, everything you've written is factually incorrect. The thread came about precisely because Vienna were neither democratic or open, and in fact still aren't. Their policy regarding the restoration of licenses remains a mystery, and solutions offered to customers vary at the whimsy of Vienna. That is entirely the opposite of 'open.' As for democratic, explain how. In a democracy people are listened to, and everyone has an equal say. I'm not actually suggesting that a company and its customers should be a democracy at all - the company offers a service, and people can buy it or not - but please don't just throw buzzwords out there for the sake of it. But, whilst we're there, in order for customers to buy into a service, the conditions should be clear up front, and in this case they never were.

I don't understand why you felt the need to join in this thread if you're so happy with things the way they are. Surely if you are happy then you can leave well alone, and let those who have issues voice them. Suggesting that threads be deleted because you personally don't like them, or understand them, is both arrogant and the opposite of the democracy you suggest exists here.