@Errikos said:
I expect of these companies not only to protect themselves, but to also protect our investments
We all do, but in a way which is not suffocating for costumers
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DRAFT #1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Users complained about VSL not providing important information regarding some policies related, in particular, to the USB copy-protection system, called the ViennaKey. This is USB dongle, which is required to run VSL software since the introduction of Vienna Instruments, is required to activate and stored licenses purchased from VSL. However, no information is given by VSL about the following facts:
* There is no way to backup a licenses after it has been stored on a ViennaKey. Also, there is no way to temporally de-activate a license. Once a license is activated on a ViennaKey it has to remain on one ViennaKey (although licenses can be moved between different ViennaKeys).
* If a ViennaKey is lost or stolen, the user will use the ability to use all the licenses which are stored on that ViennaKey. It has been reported that, as a standard procedure, users are propose to purchase replacement for the licenses on the lost/stolen ViennaKey for 50% of the original price. However, no clear standard procedure has been made public by VSL concerning this issue and users some users have reported different procedures such as purchasing additional new licenses in order to obtain a replacement for the lost/stolen ones. Questioned by the users about these issues, starting from April 2010, VSL has added the following statement to its Terms of License "Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH".
* If the warranty period of the ViennaKey has expired and the ViennaKey brakes or starts malfunctioning the user will be charged a fixed amount per license to replace licenses after purchasing a new Vienna Key. This amount has been reported by some users to be approximately 30 USD, but no clear policy has been made public by VSL regarding this issue. Additionally, it is not known what the policy is for key that are damaged in such a way that the serial number cannot be read (such as in case of a fire).
* VSL does not make publicly available the nominal fee which needs to be paid in order to sell licenses. This has been speculated to be 10% of the retail price of the license or 70 USD minimum per license. Licenses cannot be auctioned on public channels such as eBay.
No comments so far? Let's post it like this: people and Vienna will still be able to modify it on the Wikipedia page (which is probably easier too).
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Hello Christian
Looks like that VSL do not care !
No answer from you !
Do you want me to get the insurance to be able to sue VSL as you do not respect the European laws " Allow private copy", as soon I return from my holidays ?
Best
Cyril
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dear cyril, since you're addressing (obviously) me directly and personally ...
you do not respect the European laws " Allow private copy"
ahead - this is not european law, it is national law of the respective country though EU has issued several guidelines.
the respective regulations are varying from country to country, the more since copyright is not the same as german *urheberrecht* (sorry, i don't know the french term).
whereas in UK and US there is a fair-use exception for private copying of creative works, in almost all other countries this type of allowance does not exist and copying is basically forbidden - with certain defined exceptions.
also there is always a difference regarding digital and non-digital works and it is always an exception from a prohibition, not a right.
eg. in austria we had a change lately which states that copying digital work is explicitely only allowed for persons, which means that generally no company can be entitled to make copies of digtal work without beeing allowed to do so by the author.
eg. in US there is currently a discussion going on betwenn the music and film industry and the Computer and Communications Industry Association (CCIA) about redefining the fair-use clause.
currently there are several proceedings going on at the european court (eg. from spain) regarding regulation of (digital) private copies.
and again (as already posted earlier): private copies do always refer to works, never to licenses.
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
allright, so I finally bought the full cube with help of the student discount. I hope I won't need to blame myself for that.
Now I can just hope that there will come options to transform my license to limited time licenses that requires internet connection but removes the risk of having to buy all this 50% again. Or at least, why cannot VSL itself be the insurance company that easier can calculate the risk and insure the licenses, instead of an insurance company that does not understand what I want to insure and probably will ruin me without paying me the money when it all comes down to a lost key?
Now I have distributed my licenses on 3 different keys, so that not all licenses can disappear on the same time, but it does still feel uncomfortable.
I hope VSL are taking this seriously and I would really want to see this issue taken care about!
//Felix
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I understand VI policy, I would assume that users here who have invested so much would not share the registrations with friends that wouldnt pay for items. But it would be great to have a policy for purchase that protects you like iLoks ZDT. After having invested over 7k in VSL I would like to know they appreciate me as much as I do them. I can't imagine that this wouldn't be profitable for VSL and fair for customers willing to pay for peace of mind
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DG,
Here in the states things must work differently than in Germany. Most home owners insurance company will not grant insurance to pro items that leave your home. I have a policy that states I am insured for10k software in home. If software or dongle leaves home I am no longer insured. For us it is only possible through companies like Loyds at a huge expense, or possibly through a Aftra/Musician local union which requires membership and dues. I understand your reasons for not caring about the what could happens, but there are many fair solutions avialable and as you can see your customers care! Why on earth would you be so insensitiv in your response, I'm really surprised. There is not one individual on this forum that has not been a loyal VI supporter/customer and yet VI dismissing our concerns by just saying go out buy this insurance w/o an understanding of how things work is a mistake for you. Find a solution and make your customers happy and loyal.
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You are mistaken about ZDT please readthe policy prior to stating inacrurate information
This is direct quote
Fees
• ZDT coverage costs $30.00 per iLok for up to one year or until your iLok breaks
or lost/stolen: whichever comes first.
• ZDT coverage and expediency fees are non-refundable.
• At the end of the 12-month period, your ZDT subscription(s) will automatically
renew using the credit card on file. Read at the following link:http://www.ilok.com/docs/zdt_terms.pdf
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@kzarider said:
I understand VI policy, I would assume that users here who have invested so much would not share the registrations with friends that wouldnt pay for items. But it would be great to have a policy for purchase that protects you like iLoks ZDT. After having invested over 7k in VSL I would like to know they appreciate me as much as I do them. I can't imagine that this wouldn't be profitable for VSL and fair for customers willing to pay for peace of mind
Remember, Waves charges an annual fee for WUP (which includes) ZDT. Are you willing to pay VSL an annual fee for a similar program?
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OOps -- we're mixing up acronyms.
ZDT is the ilok.com program. ZDT does NOT replace lost or stolen licences!
WAVES has a program called TLC that is time-bombed/phone home. Very different programs.
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I have started a petition:
Let me know what you think.
Best,
Cesare
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Cesare,
I respect your position. From my end, this petition will not help me at all nor do I think it addresses the fundamental issue of improving the licenses security. We are talking about two different issues here:
1) Better disclosure of procedures to handle issues with the eLicenser.
2) Provision of a more practical way to safeguard/backup your purchased licenses should your eLicenser(s) have any issue.
Your petition addresses 1), which I think is simpler to address. On the other hand 2) is more fundamental and relevant to existing users and even prospective ones, and addressing it would, at least in my opinion, account for 1) while providing additional practical guarantees to the end-user.
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Gusfmm,
I totally agree with you: Point 2) that you mention is in a much more important point and it is actually what many of us would like to see becoming true. However, I have seen that the discussion on backup methods usually leads to diverging opinions and makes it difficult to have a common front. Instead, nobody would objects that the lack of clarity of Vienna reagrding their policy of stolen/broken/damaged keys (and the other things mentioned in the petition) is, let's say, embarassing...
I hope you will sign the petition
Although I am aware that it is far from enough, it will at least remember Vienna that we are still here waiting.
Best,
Cesare
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Wow i have to agree, my usb was out of warranty and needed both the key and license . They charge me over a 100.00 to get a new usb and license & shipping. Crazyness, i could of bought the upgrade for that amount. I think i will buy the upgrade and that's all from vsl. I see why people are upset.
The back and forth from VSL to ilio, just to get this all worked out. Whats crazy it was not even my fault. The usb red light came on but my computer would not recognize the usb and it did the same for the people at vsl. But since i had it for so long, i had to pay for the getting it replaces. With the way samples are getting better sounding from other companies . I don't think vsl will last 5 years with these usb practices.. I love there sound but this dongle is going to leave a bad taste in people mouth. And the US dollar will be there least worry… My advice is to buy usb after 2 year of having usb and get it trasfered to new.
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Indeed competition is mounting up and hopefully will give costumers some advantages. I've heard the LASS demos and was really impressed, and the best thing: no dongles!!! I am thinking of getting one soon, just waiting to see whether Notion 4 will support it...
Cesare
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Hi VSL Community, It is unfortunate that VSL Feels they should handle their dongle policy this way! I have been a long time user of VSL and own most of their products. I recently thought I lost my key, and then learned of this tragedy of claiming your ownership is in the USB key. This is a primitive and greedy method of treating your boutique and small client base. I no longer support VSL publicly and speak out against their ethics because of this policy. I have called insurance companies and they refuse to cover software such as VSL as they call it only a consequential loss and equate it to losing the key to your house, easily replaced by $1.50. They'll cover the key itself but not anything else. I need to constantly travel, and I used to use VSL. Now I'm going to their competitors. This is incredibly sad, an easy way for a company to fall to pieces. Best of luck to the rest of you. Here is what I wrote to VSL... I am so happy I found my key months ago when I thought it was lost. However, I must add, I still am very dismayed at how you handle the licensing of your product. As an active composer who travels constantly I need (and used to) bring my Vienna Key with me on the road... however, now that I know you claim the key is the entire $20,000 value or whatever I bought in to your company, I am terrified to do so. This month I have to travel to Central America to finish a project. I am composing a piece for a 16 piece ensemble in a tower north of San Francisco. All of this has been done with VSL as a reference. However, I will not bring that key because of the fear of losing it now. I was considering purchasing some more instruments, MIR, and vienna suite... however, I am now looking for other manufacturers that I can place on an ilok, and know that I can re-configure if something were to happen. Particularly for the very few individuals like myself who have worked so much with your company, and put our financial faith in your product, I urge you to reconsider your policy on how licenses are handled. In this digital age, placing $20,000 + in a plastic USB key is ridiculous. I once claimed and argued in composer and engineer debates for your product, and now you are losing me completely as a future customer. Your current setup is not in tandem with the working ways of the future, where engineers need to be mobile, travel and not rely on insurance companies to back up USB chip claims. My very best, and I hope you evolve your position.
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Well that's an incredible coincidence, because I've just been corresponding with Paul Steinbauer about this issue (I just upgraded my library and I'm quite worried about this issue), and he said they are definitely looking into it. The problem is they depend on eLicenser to make the change. I think we should all put the pressure on them. As I said to Paul, surely if you can download a license you should be able to upload it for safekeeping? That way you could travel with dongle (sans licenses) and download them again when you reach your destination....
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@CBones- I'm not going to argue your central argument questioning the convenience and practical useability of the eLicenser, etc. But I must say you lost me a few times in your dissertation. One of them, and I still hesitate in trying to assert this, when you mentioned whatever you meant with the analogy with the iLok.
Not sure how acquainted you're with the details on any claim process involving an iLok, but it is almost as bad as speaking of an eLicenser. Not quite, but you still are completely at the developer's mercy to provide you or not with new licenses. Quite frankly, that is in fact a very bad citacion in this case.
I think a much more sound argument, of recent occurrence, is the way for instance Waves is getting out of the iLok system for a web-based solution.
