Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
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  • There is a difference with copying to a tape; a lot of the resolution is lost (unlike digital-to-digital copies). 

    The main point is that the insurance company should be able to cover you for the complete value of the USB key, licences included, as they would in case of loss of a valuable. They just have to raise the insurance cost (sensibly). I don't see what their problem is; regardless of the immateriality of the licenses themselves, you just ask them to be insured for a specific amount and then they'd calculate their fees according to the risk. Like life-insurance. No man's life can be estimated to €1 or €20,000,000; it is immaterial, however they do insure one against some nominated sum. Couldn't the same thing happen with the VSL licences?

    As far as the Internet verification, I would agree with that as a last resort, but only in very long intervals, annually or something. Certainly stuff the 60-90 days thing...


  •  A clarification to some of the copyright mentions made above. Whether quality is lesser or not is mere nonsense. The key important terms are "legitimately own", "personal use", and "no commercial use". This is quoted from the Recording Industry Association of America, not sure if the same exact terms apply in Europe, but I presume so:

    Citing:

    "Copying (copyrighted) CDs

    • It’s okay to copy music onto an analog cassette, but not for commercial purposes.
    • It’s also okay to copy music onto special Audio CD-R’s, mini-discs, and digital tapes (because royalties have been paid on them) – but, again, not for commercial purposes.
    • Beyond that, there’s no legal "right" to copy the copyrighted music on a CD onto a CD-R. However, burning a copy of CD onto a CD-R, or transferring a copy onto your computer hard drive or your portable music player, won’t usually raise concerns so long as:
      • The copy is made from an authorized original CD that you legitimately own
      • The copy is just for your personal use. It’s not a personal use – in fact, it’s illegal – to give away the copy or lend it to others for copying.

    ..."


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    @Gusfmm said:

    This is quoted from the Recording Industry Association of America, not sure if the same exact terms apply in Europe

    OK, we're getting way off topic here, since comparison of purchased music with the type of license that accompanies samples isn't really fruitful....

    ...but whilst we're here. I can't speak for the rest of Europe - Cyril suggests that a similar law applies in France. In the UK though, absolutely any copying is illegal, to any other medium. It's widely believed that there is a 'fair useage' law, that allows you to copy your own media for your own use, but this isn't the case at all. And at least one test case has been brought, by record companies, against an individual who ripped his own CDs onto his MP3 player.


  • I'd like to contribute my two cents (or is it pennies?). I'll take the opportunity to address some of the different posts above.First, I am a professional so I want you to know that this conversation also concerns me since using Vienna products make up probably 80% of my income.I'm also not insured because my insurance company said they couldn't insure a license. Shortly after this post started (and thank goodness for that) I moved these silly dongle to where my backup drives are (under a floor board below the desk) since I got really scared at the thought theft.Third: being a professional musician doesn't mean we are rich, if I lost these licenses I wouldn't be able to recover them anytime soon (normally every project pays for a new library as needed). If I were to lose all of them in one blow I would probably have to go and look for another job until I can recover.A quick search through Google showed me that you can easily get pirate versions of VSL products and Cubase (both Dongle based). So, if they are able to crack dongled software is this really a good security measure?It seems to me that the dongle is more of a hassle than an actual solution. I also read yesterday about dongle emulation i.e you can copy your dongle to a software virtualization and run it in as many computers as you'd like. I am not able to do this with other libraries that require activation codes e.g. IK MultimediaIt seems to me that the most fair solution would be to either change to a better security system (maybe like Microsoft, don't know) or to offer two licenses for every purchase but only one can be activated at a time. Thus VSL would know that their software is not being used in more than one instance or lent to other people and we as customer know that if worst comes to worst we would still have a back up.You may argue that this not a good solution since one could activate the second license at anytime, but who would want to risk losing that backup that costs so much money? An extra license would be more than enough since a fire/break-in/theft is not likely to occur more than once in your life...? Maybe I'm wrong, but don't give me hell

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    @Another User said:

    A quick search through Google showed me that you can easily get pirate versions of VSL products and Cubase (both Dongle based). So, if they are able to crack dongled software is this really a good security measure?

    Have you watched the H2O (a group of hackers) youtube video to Synchrosoft (and to us paying costumers)? 



    This is what people using cracked software are telling us paying costumers. So we get both the insults and the hassle of the key, isn't that great?


  • Errikos :

    re-read what has been wrote.

    We are not speaking of quality, we are speaking of what is legal or not legal

    VSL has to respect the law, this is all !

    For insurance, they refuse to insure non material thing, and why is it us that has to pay again !

    We are paying the dongle already 

    You said : > As far as the Internet verification, I would agree with that as a last resort, but only in very long intervals, annually or something. Certainly stuff the 60-90 days thing...

    this is to protect VSL work ! why is it a problem for you ? ?

    if this is done at the lauch of VE/VI there is no problem, it will take a few extra millisec ! 


  • I wasn't talking about what the law says, only my opinion on what's ethical - that's where I mentioned the inferior copy-quality of an analogue tape. So before you say it's nonsense gusffm - or whatever it was - read better.

    I don't like the idea of dependence, of having to "report" to a company for my legitimate use of products for which I have paid thousands of €€, simply due to some twirps' unethical actions; especially every so often. However I did say that as a last resort I would perhaps(!) reluctantly agree to have my hand forced to "log-in", but only if all other avenues were exhausted, and only say once a year (so Cyril you also please read my posts better; I didn't reject that idea outright). And like I said there are issues to be discussed before an action like that is taken.


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    This is a very first draft of some text that could be included in the criticism section of the VSL page on Wikipedia:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Symphonic_Library

    I am sure it can be greatly improved. Thus any suggestion is welcome, also from people from Vienna: it should not contain non-correct information.

    DRAFT #1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Users complained about VSL not providing important information regarding some policies related, in particular, to the USB copy-protection system, called the ViennaKey. This is USB dongle, which is required to run VSL software since the introduction of Vienna Instruments, is required to activate and stored licenses purchased from VSL. However, no information is given by VSL about the following facts:

    * There is no way to backup a licenses after it has been stored on a ViennaKey. Also, there is no way to temporally de-activate a license. Once a license is activated on a ViennaKey it has to remain on one ViennaKey (although licenses can be moved between different ViennaKeys).

    * If a ViennaKey is lost or stolen, the user will use the ability to use all the licenses which are stored on that ViennaKey. It has been reported that, as a standard procedure, users are propose to purchase replacement for the licenses on the lost/stolen ViennaKey for 50% of the original price. However, no clear standard procedure has been made public by VSL concerning this issue and users some users have reported different procedures such as purchasing additional new licenses in order to obtain a replacement for the lost/stolen ones. Questioned by the users about these issues, starting from April 2010, VSL has added the following statement to its Terms of License "Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH".

    * If the warranty period of the ViennaKey has expired and the ViennaKey brakes or starts malfunctioning the user will be charged a fixed amount per license to replace licenses after purchasing a new Vienna Key. This amount has been reported by some users to be approximately 30 USD, but no clear policy has been made public by VSL regarding this issue. Additionally, it is not known what the policy is for key that are damaged in such a way that the serial number cannot be read (such as in case of a fire).

    * VSL does not make publicly available the nominal fee which needs to be paid in order to sell licenses. This has been speculated to be 10% of the retail price of the license or 70 USD minimum per license. Licenses cannot be auctioned on public channels such as eBay.


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    @Another User said:

    II don't like the idea of dependence, of having to "report" to a company for my legitimate use of products for which I have paid thousands of €€, simply due to some twirps' unethical actions; especially every so often. However I did say that as a last resort I would perhaps(!) reluctantly agree to have my hand forced to "log-in", but only if all other avenues were exhausted, and only say once a year (so Cyril you also please read my posts better; I didn't reject that idea outright). And like I said there are issues to be discussed before an action like that is taken.

    propose anoher solution !

    The idea that ypu propose of checking every year is no good as the licences can be used for free for a year

    you dont need to login into your account as everything is saved by Safari !


  • But wouldn't even just being given the chance to deactivate the licenses (e.g. before a trip or leaving for vacation) a HUGE step forward? Now, I might be blind, but I don't really see any possible reason for not allowing it!


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    @Another User said:

    I don't like the idea of dependence, of having to "report" to a company for my legitimate use of products for which I have paid thousands of €€, simply due to some twirps' unethical actions; especially every so often. However I did say that as a last resort I would perhaps(!) reluctantly agree to have my hand forced to "log-in", but only if all other avenues were exhausted, and only say once a year (so Cyril you also please read my posts better; I didn't reject that idea outright). And like I said there are issues to be discussed before an action like that is taken.

     

     Did you agree to your cellular phone company being able to track you down anywhere you are, anytime they want? Second example: do you feel uncomfortable letting Microsoft verify the authenticity of your Windows copy every time you get the latest Windows update? Third example: do you feel annoyed by allowing your insurance company to send an inspector to visit your property whenever they require to ensure the insured assets faithfully mirror what your stated you were insuring? Last example: how do you feel about the dozens and dozens of cookies saved on your harddrive that allow all kind of marketing companies (including Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, ....) to track what and where you browse, or even worse, what, where, when, who, and how you purchase?

    A periodical "synchronization" of the eLicenser every two or three months to ensure it's still being used by the same user licenses were sold to should be a very minuscule measure to having to comply with, if that provided means for users to gain the ability not to lose thousands of USD/EUR invested in VSL licenses if something were to happen to your key.


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    @cesare.magri said:

    But wouldn't even just being given the chance to deactivate the licenses (e.g. before a trip or leaving for vacation) a HUGE step forward? Now, I might be blind, but I don't really see any possible reason for not allowing it!

    Exactly or even better. Since the software can be used to transfer licenses from one dongle to another, why not the ability to uploaded it on the website for secure storage? I could definitely make a habit of that. I'm sure many professionals, like myself, don't have their music computers connected to the Internet, but it would just be a matter of moving the dongle to a connected computer and just upload the license whilst for example traveling, holidays, etc. At least that would be one step in right direction...

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    @cesare.magri said:

    [quote user=]

    This is what people using cracked software are telling us paying costumers. So we get both the insults and the hassle of the key, isn't that great?

    Well, that's exactly my point. Softwares will always be cracked. In my business we sell music and electronic educational material (PDF) and we are well aware that a lot of people copy them, even though we have put password protection and take other measures, everything can be cracked. We don't worry too much (we know it's inevitable) and we are not going broke from it. I can't count how many people I know with a cracked Sibelius copy, and I know for a fact that Sibelius knows that. They accept it, because their business comes from professionals and schools, colleges, etc. Same goes for me in our business and we are not about to make our clients lives more difficult because of the bloody hackers....

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    @cesare.magri said:

    This is a very first draft of some text that could be included in the criticism section of the VSL page on Wikipedia:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Symphonic_Library

    Avé Cesare

    Morituri te salutante [;)] ( could not resist with the joke [H] ðŸ˜‰

    May be you could give a few weeks to VSL to give them time to consult there lawier and to find a solution with Steinberg

    Best

    Cyril


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    I have just found this about "private copy" for UK

    (Reuters) - Britain will signal on Wednesday that it intends to legalize copying of CDs or DVDs onto digital music players or computers for personal use, a government source said on Tuesday.
    The move was one of the recommendations made in a review of Britain's intellectual property framework carried out by Professor Ian Hargreaves earlier this year at the request of Prime Minister David Cameron.
    Business Secretary Vince Cable will announce on Wednesday the government's response to Hargreaves' report.
    Hargreaves, professor of digital economy at Cardiff School of Journalism, found that Britain's 300-year-old copyright laws were obstructing innovation and growth and said a shake-up could add nearly 8 billion pounds ($13 billion) to the economy.
    Cable will signal the government will agree to Hargreaves' recommendation to legalize private copying or "format shifting" of legitimately-purchased copyright works, the source said.
    The practice has already been legalized in European countries except for Britain, Ireland and Malta.
    The change will mean a consumer may copy a CD they have bought onto another device such as their iPod or home computer.
    It will not allow people to share content over the internet without copyright owners' permission, such as on file-sharing sites.
    The government will also agree to another Hargreaves' recommendation to introduce an exception to copyright for parody, the source said.
    This will make it legal for comedians to parody someone else's work without seeking permission from the copyright holder.
    The government has not yet indicated what stance it will take on another Hargreaves' recommendation -- the introduction of a central digital copyright exchange where licenses in copyright could be bought and sold, helping simplify the way businesses purchase rights to material.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/02/us-britain-copyright-idUSTRE7715BP20110802


  • @Gusfmm: Whether you meant any offense by your comment or not, I took some; I usually do when somebody describes what I say as 'nonsense'. I don't take any particular pleasure when I send someone to re-read my posts, on the contrary it takes time to respond to that person and type that suggestion out. However it saves a lot more time as I wouldn't have to type all this in this case. And verily, my comment about 'inferior quality' can be interpreted as having 'ethical' implications, and not even remote ones. When you duplicate/triplicate etc. something from a digital source to an analogue tape for someone else - not that that's ethical - you lose a lot of quality, therefore if that someone really admires the content will most likely go out and buy it. When it's offered to him on a digital plate however, he suddenly becomes lazy, parsimonious, idiotic...

    No, I didn't agree to the cellular phone company being able to track me down anywhere I am anytime. No, I don't feel uncomfortable letting Microsoft verify the authenticity of my Windows copy every time I get the latest update for a) Microsoft is not obliged to update pirated copies of their products, b) this is not the same example as what is being said here, as with the Microsoft example it would be up to me whether to upgrade or not, whereas with the VSL products we are talking about verifying ourselves periodically in order to use the products and versions for which we have already paid. My insurance does not need to send someone periodically to visit me for any item I have insured that does not wear and tear during the passage of time. Of course they would have to do it with a home or a vehicle for example. Lastly, to the best of my ability and knowledge I clean my computer system daily from all such Internet garbage you mention that companies force-feed it. Anything else?

    As far as the periodical synchronization of the eLicencer, why have it every 2-3 months? Why not daily, or even hourly? If your argument was the only consideration, why should we allow a pirate to finish even one track using our key at our expense?...

    @Cyril: DBX? I'll keep that in mind. As far as my proposing something else, I propose that government agencies come down really hard on Internet piracy and prosecute for huge damages. Treat it as diligently as they would child pornography. Any street establishment that is cought selling illegal/stolen goods is immediately closed down and the proprietors not just prosecuted, but arrested! Why should that not apply to Internet illegal sites (some don't sell, they share but have some advertisements or subscription fees for quick downloads)? Anybody who helps with the proliferation of stolen goods has to shoulder the responsibility of their criminal actions; be it the server, the company that assists with the downloads, and certainly the troll that uploads / makes available the merchandise in the first place. Why should we continue to shoulder the responsibility collectively, go out of our way, be penalized (restricted) because the relevant government agencies don't take action, or because the government refuses to legislate properly in order to protect intellectual property as well as any other kind of property?

    I would welcome the legal backup laws that you quoted (for personal use), if at the same time strict laws for abusers were to be passed - and enforced - concurrently. Finally, and in that mindset and vein, I would - again reluctantly - consider the annual ping to the mother company (let the thieving turd work for a few months with the stolen key, probably some chugga-chugga composter) if some contigencies were satisfactorily addressed, and apply pressure to the authorities to do the job we pay them to do!!


  • I had a dream .......... Errikos comme back to earth

    DBX ---->>> http://www.dbxpro.com/


  • I have waited to buy any new VSL products since I saw this thread the first time. Now I'm closer than ever to make a new large VSL purchase and I'm curious if the guys on VSL have recognized this thread and if there is any progress in making it more safe for us customers to own a licence, or at least providing more options for me to prove I'm not a pirate. 

    I'd really need to buy the vienna cube full library, but if nothing has changed I'm still not sure I'm willing to take the risk.

    I just want to add that I'm warning everyone I know about this this issue if they are planning to buy vsl-stuff.


  • If you can afford to pay big bucks for the Cube than you can afford to insure it.  Why would you pay tens of thousands of $$$$ for a new sports car and not bother about insuring it.  It's the same thing with The Cube.  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me not to insure it. 

    I find that here in the states it's atually rather difficult to find anybody to insure software.  VSL is different because they will replace your software for 1/2 price.  That's makes it easier to find insurance for their products because the insurance company doesn't have to pay full price to replace the software.  I know my Homeowner's insurance will cover my VSL products in the event of a fire or if my dongle grows a pair of legs and walks away.  However, if I lose my dongle on the road somewhere I'm S.O.L. (Sh!t Out of Luck).  Therefore my poor dongle will never see the light of day. .AFAIK, if your dongle is damaged, you can send it to VSL and if they can verify the licenses on it then you just have to pay for another key.  I could be wrong on that though. 

    Errikos touched on something when he mentioned the "chugga chugga composters" out there.  VSL is in the unique position in that there are not a lot of musicians out there who use orchestral samples and it's just not worth it for a hacker to spend all of that time and effort trying to break a difficult code for something that has such a narrow market place.  Who is he going to sell it to?  He'll go for the easier target like EW or Symphobia and, as far as the Chugga Chugga chimps out there are concerned, East West is good enough for them.

    Aside from insurance I don't know what the solution is.  This log in every 60 to 90 days idea would be a pain in the A$$ for me so I'm not for that at all. 


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    @Cyril said:

    I had a dream .......... Errikos comme back to earth

    DBX ---->>> http://www.dbxpro.com/

    Earth unfortunately is rather a sick place at the moment, I'm keeping a safe distance...