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  3. The outs of the Vienna Key [are they written anywhere?]
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    @DG said:

    If you lose your licences new ones have to be generated. I believe that this is charged for by Steinberg. I certainly don't think that customers who bother to take care of their dongles should have to pay for the careless of other customers, which is what would happen if VSL didn't pass the cost on to the offenders.

    DG

    10%? That seems very high for a simple license generation on their system... ? $10 maybe!! [<:o)]
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    @Another User said:

    Someone said they are showing a lack of trust for their customers: I doubt this very much, I think what they are really showing is a lack of trust for thieves, or people who pretend to be customers but actually intend to steal from them! Who can blame them on that, and no doubt while there are people like that around in the world, and I've met a few, I'm sure VSL team does not see real customers as threats or thieves.

    Again, I'm sure that the people at Vienna are very good people. I'm simply complaining about some of their marketing choice, namely

    • the lack of a system which protects you again stolen/lost/broken keys
    • the total lack of information about thei policy on stolen/lost/broken keys
  • M
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    It has everything to do with it - again, VSL are not a government agency where you need strict rules to keep them in line. They are a private company. As soon as you write something like this down there are plenty of people out there who will fight to take advantage of it and exploit it, thereby undoing it's original purpose: keeping it fair for everyone. By keeping it discretionary it means that Vienna can exercise fair judgement, no doubt on the side of benefitting the customer as I've always found they have. 

    I do agree that they should say on the product information that if the key is lost, the licenses are lost and that is THAT. They may even be able to add that "in some specific cases we exercise discretion at replacing these licenses for a small fee however that is the exception to the rule" and they can not say anymore.

    Re your last paragraph, again you are expecting perfection and a final solution in an imperfect world. What you aren't recognising is that one way or the other, it is going to result in inconvenience for some. In the case of your suggestion: if the internet was down, if the power was down in a region other than where you are, and you couldn't access it, a failure in the system, whatever. You are cut off from your license, and can't launch the software. Maybe you are right on a deadline. You will curse the system again and say "why can't I just have a system where my license is on the key!?" There is NO solution where EVERYONE will be happy even to any worthwhile majority. That's life.

    I believe the system is place is the best for everyone given the fact the world is not perfect. There is also another angle to this which I think DG mentioned, is that there is one of personal responsibility - taking care of the key so that it doesn't get lost / stolen etc. insuring it, and so on. I have a keyboard and speakers right? If somebody steals that, I don't say "Oh replace my stuff please it was stolen". It's gone! That's the license, it is an intellectual thing stored on a physical item, so it's ultimately a physical item. I don't like it, you don't like it, nobody likes it, we don't like theives, economic equality whatever. The world is not perfect. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the system that is there now can be bettered without inconveniencing others for the benefit of a few. 

    I agree with you they should spell out the dangers more when people buy the software, and the fee for replacing an out of warrantee or broken key should be minimal if it isn't already.
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    @Another User said:

    I believe the system is place is the best for everyone given the fact the world is not perfect. There is also another angle to this which I think DG mentioned, is that there is one of personal responsibility - taking care of the key so that it doesn't get lost / stolen etc. insuring it, and so on. I have a keyboard and speakers right? If somebody steals that, I don't say "Oh replace my stuff please it was stolen". It's gone! That's the license, it is an intellectual thing stored on a physical item, so it's ultimately a physical item. I don't like it, you don't like it, nobody likes it, we don't like theives, economic equality whatever. The world is not perfect. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the system that is there now can be bettered without inconveniencing others for the benefit of a few. 

    According to this phylosophy we should never try to improve anything.

    But apart from this, this is another ambiguos point of the license system: the license is only a license when it is about, for example, re-selling it. But it becomes a physical key, for example, once you loose it or brake it. This double personality of the license/key is a another very unfari point of this licensing system, especially because the license/physical nature is always unfavourable for the costumer (why can't I resell a key, since it is physical, or keep using my licenses when I loose the key, since a license is a license).

    Let's say it clear, this copy protection system is horribly unfari to the user, and only to the user. And the total lack of information to the costumers is almost outrageous.

    Cesare
  • P
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    @Another User said:

    That's the license, it is an intellectual thing stored on a physical item, so it's ultimately a physical item. I don't like it, you don't like it, nobody likes it, we don't like theives, economic equality whatever. The world is not perfect. I could be wrong, but I don't believe the system that is there now can be bettered without inconveniencing others for the benefit of a few. 

    This is just not correct. The license is not a physical thing. The license is simply permission to use something. Vienna are trying to persuade you that putting it on a dongle makes it a physical thing, but it doesn't. I have paid for permission to use some software - end of story. That permission shouldn't be stealable, but the system that vienna use, to ensure it can't be stolen from them, is exactly what exposes the customer to risk, so Vienna really have some responsibility here too. 
  • C
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    Pingu you've phrased it wonderfully!

    Cesare
  • L
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    Hallo!

    Is there any reply or statement to this topic by the company? In my case my eLincenser really is in danger. I work in Austria and Cyprus so I have to travel a lot (12 flights a year).  I am really scared and upset because there is no reaction on the customers concerns (148 replies is not enough?).

    It is the task of the company to find a better solution. Or I have to suppose that there is no interest of changing the actual situation. For example: is it o.k. that You need to buy extra lisences for a network setup? I don´t think that this is fair, at least in the case of VE Pro, VI Pro or Vienna Suite You get 3 Licenses. 

    If I pay so much money for a sample library I expect a good solution for the customers. All the products are registered, I have the software and the bill of the company: so I have the right to use it (also in a network setup). If I loose the key, if it is stolen or broken I don´t loose the right to use the samples and the software, I only loose the companies protection system - an interesting case for court....

    But this would not be a good way of discussing the subject. The best way would be that someone of VSL gives answers (I am sure in our days technically there is a solution). If this already happened, please forgive me...
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    Unfortunately, during this year in which the thread has been active we never received an official reply. There seem to be users, who are somehow related to Vienna, who tried to post Vienna's views on the problems. But no official comments.

    Honestly, I don't expect an official reply, nor a solution to the problems raised in the thread, to be provided at any time. The goal of this post, right now, is limited to keeping people informed about the huge amount of info which is kept hidden and is not provided to the users on the main site (or anywhere else!) at the time of the purchase. This includes things like the role of the key (is it the license or not?), what's the policy with broken/stolen/lost keys, how much should a user expect to pay for replacing a lost license and many other thing (e.g. the lack of a license for a network setup), and, in the end, that this association of the license and the key is essentially a scam.

    I've long been planning to start a website (I actually bought the domain but never had the time to set it up) which could make the problems listed at the beginning of this thread more visible. It would require loads of work for a single person but if someone would like to help please let me know! I'll try to do it given the raising interest. I think that being given these information is very important, particularly for the non-professionals users (to which the downloadable instruments and the SE are targeted) but also for many professionals.
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    Thank You very much for the information and the time and energy You put into this thread!

    I agree, this must be kept warm. On the other hand I suppose that sooner or later VSL will react. I like the library and also the support often helped me, friendly all the time. But the policy concerning the key and network issues are not o.k. and i am truly disappointed by VSL, especially because I am Austrian and VSL gets Prices in Austria for their brilliant work. So they really should think about it, it is their good name that is in danger...
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    I thought it would also be very useful to collect as many users experience stories with the lost/stolen key policy since they seem to differ greatly from user to user. For this reason I'll try to setup the website (very basic one) hopefully this week. The domain will be

    www.viennausers.com

    I think that having all the information well organized in a single place will help. If someone is interested in helping please let me know!

    Cesare
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    The link to the website is now working (www.viennausers.com). If you type it in your browser you'll be redirected to the correct page (hopefully!). Right now there is almost nothing on it, just a streamlined version of the post opening this thread which I will changed (need to add all the TM etc stuff).

    It would be really nice to collect user experiences with stolen, broken and lost keys so that other users can know what to expect and what they can ask for. So, what did you have to do once you lost or broke your key? how much did you pay for a stolen key? etc etc... We could start collecting them here, then I'll copy them to the website. I'm also planning to make the posting to the website open, although it will take me some time since I'm not a website expert. Ideas are welcome.

    Some people have already offered their help, I'm very grateful to them and I'll be back to them soon. Who knows, maybe one day the website will serve for a general help for vienna users...

    All the best,

    Cesare
  • clruweC
    clruweC
    The solution is actually quite simple: licenses should be stored in your account in VSL website. And the dongle should require a password. I've seen this in other applications. You can only download the license on to one dongle and you get an activation code for it, a bit like IK multimedia does with their licenses. If you lose, break it, etc. You just request a new activation code, download it on the dongle and type in a new password... That way only one license can exist at a time, but everybody's protected.
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    @cesare.magri said:

    I thought it would also be very useful to collect as many users experience stories with the lost/stolen key policy since they seem to differ greatly from user to user.

    What about failed key policy? How is that handled? I must say I would get really, really angry if my Vienna Key failed, and it could be proven that it had failed (that is, I would still have it and could send it to be examined), and that would still mean the loss of my licence - is this possible? In such a case I would definitely expect the replacement of the failed key with the valid one as well as the reactivation of all the licences lost due to the key failure.
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    I urge everyone who's posted or read this thread to check out the new thread I've started: http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/29768.aspx

    I urge everyone who considers VSL's policies to be unethical to send them the following e-mail:



    I support Roger Eichorn and ask that the following statements be evaluated and addressed. If a company is unable to address any question of unethical behavior it is not a company I would want to do business with and would not want anyone I know, either personally or professionally, doing business with either.

    In order to allay the suspicion that VSL’s business practices with respect to Licenses and USB Licensing Keys is unethical and that, by way of said practices, VSL is unfairly taking advantage of their customers, I ask that VSL review the following 21 statements. If any of the statements are false, I ask that VSL identify the false statements and explain why they are false.

    (1) VSL has an ethical obligation to inform its customers regarding the nature of their purchase(s), including VSL’s policies regarding Licenses and USB Licensing Keys. Should VSL fail to do so, it has an ethical obligation both to take responsibility for that failure and to take steps to remedy it.

    (2) VSL’s eLicensing system works in such a way that, once a License is installed onto a USB Licensing Key (in which case I will refer to the USB Licensing Key as “enabled” with the License), that License is then non-transferrable, meaning that the Customer who purchased the software (and the License) cannot on his or her own subsequently transfer said License to another USB Licensing Key.

    (3) The above, (2), is true despite the fact that VSL’s web-site states the following:

    “Use the eLCC software (eLicenser Control Center) to copy your licenses onto your USB protection device once you’ve received them with the product box or via email. Later on, you can also move the licensing information from one ViennaKey to another, but you can’t store the same product license on two ViennaKeys at the same time.”

    Source:

    (4) The above statement, in (3), explicitly allows that customers can in fact transfer Licenses from one USB Licensing Key to another, on the condition that they are not simultaneously in possession of two or more USB Licensing Keys enabled with the same Licenses.

    (5) If customers lose their USB Licensing Keys, it is VSL’s contention that they have thereby lost their Licenses. They are unable to transfer their Licenses onto another USB Licensing Key since, for all VSL knows, they did not in fact lose their original key. Customers are then required to pay 50% of the cost of the software to purchase a new License.

    (6) It is VSL’s expectation that customers will be informed of these policies solely through having read Item 6 of the Terms of License.

    Source: Paul Steinbauer, Product Manager for VSL; personal e-mail correspondence with Roger Eichorn, 12 August 2011.

    Source: Stefen Steinbauer, Sales Manager for VSL; personal e-mail correspondence with Roger Eichorn, 29 August 2011.

    (7) Item 6 of the Terms of License states that, should a ViennaKey be lost, VSL is under no obligation to replace the Key. It then states that, upon learning of the loss of a ViennaKey, VSL reserves the right to block any Licenses that were stored on the ViennaKey. The third and final sentence of Item 6 states: “Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH.”

    (8) It is VSL’s contention that Item 6 is sufficient to ensure that its customers are informed regarding the policies outlined above, in (2) and (5). Nowhere else, whether on VSL’s web-site or in any of the documentation or communications that accompany purchases or are involved in the licensing process, does VSL state these policies: nowhere else does VSL state that the relationship between ViennaKey and License is such that to lose the former entails losing the latter.

    Source: Stefen Steinbauer, Sales Manager for VSL; personal e-mail correspondence with Roger Eichorn, 29 August 2011.

    (9) VSL intends customers to glean the policies outlined above, in (2) and (5), on the basis of the second and third sentences of Item 6, and their relation to each other. Customers are to understand the following: If, upon being informed of a lost ViennaKey, VSL “blocks” the License(s) on the Key, then those License(s) would have to be replaced. But in sentence three, we’re told that VSL will not replace Licenses free of charge. It is this “blocking of Licenses” that underwrites the move in Item 6 from discussing lost or stolen “ViennaKeys” to discussing lost or stolen “Licenses”: if the loss of a Key entails that VSL will “block” the License(s) it contains, then to loss the Key entails losing the Licenses.

    (10) There is a prima facie conflict between Item 6 and VSL’s statement quoted above, in (3). In the above-quoted passage, VSL assures customers that they can transfer their License(s) from one ViennaKey to another on condition that they are not simultaneously in possession of two ViennaKeys engaged with the same License(s). It is natural to assume that this applies also in the case of having lost a ViennaKey, since in that case, the customer would not simultaneously be in possession of two ViennaKeys engaged with the same Licenses.

    (11) Given (10), there is a prima facie conflict between (a) an apparently straightforward claim made by VSL on a prominent web-page, one likely to be visited by customers, and (b) an ambiguous set of claims buried in the Terms of License. It is far more likely that customers will read (a) than that they will read (b), in which case VSL will have misled them, violating (1).

    (12) Item 6 does not outright state the policies outlined above, in (2) and (5). It says nothing to the effect that the loss of a ViennaKey entails the loss of the License, nor does it state how much money it will cost customers to acquire a new License. Rather, the policies in question are to be inferred from what Item 6 does say, as demonstrated above, in (9).

    (13) As a matter of fact, VSL is unable to block Licenses in the manner discussed in Sentence 2 of Item 6. Were VSL able to do so, then the policy described in Sentence 3 would be unnecessary, for if VSL were able to block Licenses, then they would be able to block the Licenses on lost or stolen Keys, rendering the Keys useless, thereby eliminating the possibility that lost or stolen Keys remain in use (which is the rationale for the policies in question).

    Source: Paul Steinbauer, Product Manager for VSL; personal e-mail correspondence with Roger Eichorn, 11 August 2011.

    Source: Stefen Steinbauer, Sales Manager for VSL; personal e-mail correspondence with Roger Eichorn, 22 August 2011.

    (14) Sentence 2 was inserted into the Terms of License because VSL hoped to develop the ability described. It remains in the Terms of License because VSL does not wish to pay for the Terms to be redrafted.

    Source: Stefen Steinbauer, Sales Manager for VSL; personal e-mail correspondence with Roger Eichorn, 22 August 2011.

    (15) As shown above in (9), Sentence 2 is required in order to underwrite Sentence 3. Yet as shown above in (13), the ability Sentence 2 attributes to VSL vis-Ă -vis ViennaKeys would render Sentence 3 unnecessary.

    (16) Given (9), VSL’s inability to “block” Licenses stored on ViennaKeys entails that the Licenses on lost ViennaKeys are not in fact “lost”: it is only the ViennaKeys that are lost. A customer who lost a ViennaKey still possesses a valid License, but not the Key onto which it was downloaded. Thus, he has not lost the License.

    (17) Given (9)–(16), Item 6 is ambiguous at best, incoherent at worst, and certainly an insufficient alternative to simply stating the policies in question.

    (18) Given (17), it is reasonable to suppose that, even were a customer to read Item 6, they very well might come away from it without an understanding of the policies outlined in (2) and (5).

    (19) It is generally the case that people do not read legal fine-print.

    (20) Given (1) and (17)–(19), VSL has failed in its ethical obligation to inform its customers regarding the nature of their purchase(s); VSL has an obligation to take responsibility for that failure.

    (21) As part of taking responsibility for their failure to inform their customers, VSL should provide those Customers who lost their ViennaKeys as a result of their ignorance of the releveant policies with the means to use the software they paid for.
  • clruweC
    clruweC
    Absolutely agree with your letter, except for clause 19. This is really not the company's problem/responsibility. Why don't we start a petition instead to change the way the license works. As stated by someone above, the concept of reporting it stolen should be the logical step. I would definitely campaign for such a petition. PS: I work in the music industry and I'm surprised how many "official" companies/individuals pay for products that sit on their shelves whilst they use crack copies, precisely because of this dongle issue. Perhaps this is an avenue to pursue...?
  • D
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    Thanks for the response!

    I do agree with your remarks about Statement 19. Fortunately, it is superfluous -- yet, I think, true, and as a truth, something that VSL should take into consideration when deciding what is or is not an effective means of informing their customers about their policies.

    I plan to launch a website soon devoted to this issue. It will link to a petition. I'll post a url as soon as the site goes live.
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC

    VSL have to find a solution so that they can de-activate a stolen USB key.

    Legaly, a déclaration of lost at the police should make it

    VSL could then send another key with a list of new serial number and just charge for it
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    This is why I’ve stopped buying VSL products. I’ve already purchased $2,000 worth of their software, but because of the risk involved I can’t justify buying anymore. I’m at a point now where I can afford to buy the cube (standard) and a few beefy PCs to run it on for a small ensemble of MIDI musicians to play live, using software I’ve written in Max. But the risk of losing the dongles is way too high so I’m researching other companies’ products.

    I spend several thousand dollars a year on music software and hardware, and VSL is losing a lot of money from me, and until they implement a “phone home” type of authorization they won’t be getting anymore of my money.

    Two years ago I lost my dongle while moving which had the licenses for SE and SE extended. I bought a new dongle and emailed VSL telling them I’d lost my dongle and how can I reactivate my software. They told me all they could do is sell me new licenses for $500! I’d like to know where in my license agreement it mentions a 50% charge to replace a lost or stolen license. Luckily I found my dongle after several days of searching and after that I’ve never taken the dongle out of my home. Even though the reason I bought the SE was to use at school.

    VSL makes great products but, with the possible exception of Sony, I’ve never dealt with a company that treats its customer so abusively and with out right contempt.

    Yes VSL does need to have a copy protection system in place, but one that doesn’t penalize their own costumers. If they implemented a "phone home" type system I could easily spend $10k plus on their products over the next few years, but untill then no dice.

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    @Cyril said:

    VSL have to find a solution so that they can de-activate a stolen USB key.

    Legaly, a déclaration of lost at the police should make it

    VSL could then send another key with a list of new serial number and just charge for it

     

    Cyril, VSL would still have to charge something, unless Steinberg changes its policy of charging a fee to provide duplicate licenses.

    DG
  • Cyril BlancC
    Cyril BlancC
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    @DG said:

    Cyril, VSL would still have to charge something, unless Steinberg changes its policy of charging a fee to provide duplicate licenses.

    DG

    They will of course charge the dongle

    It should not be a big deal to write a little program that will look of what is owning the user and to re-generate a new license number