I asked Herb for a statistic -- and it would be helpful to know this...

In the history of the syncrosoft dongle technology used by VSL, HOW MANY actual dongle failures NOT attributed to physical abuse (they simply stopped working without any external influences) has VSL encountered? Not asking about lost/stolen or "my dog ate it" cases -- simply, "it stopped working for no apparent reason" cases ???

Is this a concern for the average user, who simply plugs it in once, never moves it, never risks physical damage. HAS a Vienna Key/Steinberg Key EVER simply failed for no physical reason that's known to VSL? How many since the beginning of time?

If the answer is 0 out of 10,000 over 5 years, this discussion is wasting time, yes?

Thx

J

@mikezaz_27157 said:

I understand your concern. It might help to think of your Vienna Instruments products just like a real instrument. You have to restring every guitar every once in a while, to keep it in good tune. Our ViennaKeys have a warranty of two years, so you might want to consider exchanging your key every two years, to prevent it from failing

which brings us back to the fact that the license is clearly now a piece of hardware - Vienna even want you to think of it that way - so I'm entitled to sell it.

Bingo.

Slippery slope of law here...

@cesare.magri said:

Martin,

The dongle insurance price in England seems indeed good: does it also cover loss? Is it international (i.e. can you bring the key in a foreign country)? I wonder whether there is anything like this in Germany. However, still, the idea of having to get an insurance for a software sounds really a bit excessive to me, independently of the price.

Cesare

The insurance can be adjusted to cover the UK, EU or worldwide. As I require insurance for my studio regardless, it really isn't a big deal for me to pay a bit extra to cover software licenses.

M

I found out about the ECC (European Consumers Centres' Network), a costumer right association from the european community. On the website of your country you can find a form (the cross border compliant form) like this

http://www.eccireland.ie/downloads/ares_PROD_eccnet_normal_complaint_35.pdf

where it is possible to point out non-transparent commercial practices. I'll try to send it since I believe that the users were not provided the essential information about the Vienna key. This was also confirmed by the sale manager at when I pointed it out:

"As a reaction to the points you made regarding the replacement license, we will include this information in our Terms of License. You can find our Terms of License here (the link is placed on the bottom of every single webpage on our website): http://vsl.co.at/en/65/75/443/522/340.vsl I want to emphasize that we didn't want to hold back this information from you and our other users, it indeed seems that it has been overlooked that this information should be included in the Terms of License (even if it is not required)."

After this email they've added the following line in Terms of licence page:

"Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH" but this sounds far from clear. Apart from the fact that

Apart from the fact that many of use were not even given this information at the time of their purchase I still think that this sentence is not clear enough, user should be given a clear description of what losses/stolen/damages might cost and what is the procedure. Things need to be more transparent.

Cheers,

Cesare

 As it happens my home insurance is up for renewal, and I've decided to change provider. In the process I asked the new provider if they would cover the software licenses on my dongles, and was quite surprised to find that they will. Don't know how much it's going to shove up my premiums yet. I may never be able to tell, since I have quite few other high risk items, such as my CD collection. But if I can determine how much of the premium my VSL stuff accounts for I'll let you know.

VSL had a problem. They solved the problem by making it your problem. We could make it their problem again by not buying their products until a reasonable solution is proposed. Unfortunately we didn't do that and we bought their software "as is". Now they have no motivation to do the right thing. Too bad, an optional timed out license is the obvious solution and is a win for all. 

Right, but how could we know? Conditions are not clearly written anywhere, not even in the "License Warranty and License Agreement" you get with the key or the boxed products. Only now they have added a blurry short sentence in the Terms of license.

There should be an easily accessible page explaining things clearly:

- that the license and the key are the SAME thing.

- what are the consequences of stolen, lost keys?

- what happens with broken dongles? what is the exact procedure?

- that you should periodically replace your dongle to keep it in the warranty range?

- how much are you expected to pay in each case?

This "contact us and we will see" is an extremely non-clear and unfair procedure. Why should each costumer get a different treatment. Why should costumers not be informed?

Why were we not clearly informed when we bought our products? I simply would not have purchased it but probably others would have anyways, so why not inform?

Best,

Cesare

 Well I finally changed my home insurance to a new provider. I explained very carefully how the dongle works, and the fact that I wanted to insure the licenses on it, not the value of the USB stick. They were fine with it, and it didn't add anything at all to my premiums. Don't take that as any kind of guarantee - the real test will be if ever I have to try and make a claim; no doubt there will then be additional conditions that enable them to squirm out of it - but, at the moment, so long as you warn your insurer, and keep your receipts, it seems that covering your licenses is do-able.

@cesare.magri said:

• the Syncrosoft system makes code much slower: essentially encrypted code is converted into machine code using thousands and thousands of CPU computations for the decoding. It has been speculated that some of speed bumps reported by programs using the Syncrosoft system (like Cubase, Nuendo or Vienna itself) were often just consequences of Syncrosoft improving a poorly written copy-protection code.

Is this true? I know when the system first starts up an internet connection that is live will cause a check of the license but I was not aware that say Cubase 5  is running its processing through the key as sequencing, composing, playback, editing are done. Once the verification process is out of the way -30 sec on my kind of middle of the road PC-then the key retires into the background-no processes are run thorugh it as far as I can tell. I have used the Vienna Instruments off line as well-this is a feature that I have verified several times.

You are right, this point I'm not 100% sure of and it needs to be checked more carefully. I really doubt that it is a "one time verification" thing: those were the old dongles which were to easy to emulate. Also, notice how often the light in the key lights up whenever you use the VSL software (essentially any time you use the Instruments). But if it is wrong I'll delete it from the list.

I do have issues about having to re-purchase licenses if a dongle is lost, at a very base level it doesn't seem right. I've spent five thousand on my collection of VSL products, I have no intention of breaching the terms of the license and I respect that quality costs. The big issue is that in paying for and signing the agreements I have the licenses for my products. Whether the key is lost or not doesn't change the fact that I have licenses as after all this is not a physical thing its an IP issue.  I think VSL seriously need to review their stance on the loss of a key and at least allow a one off replacement of licenses if a key is lost.  - Check up with the owner of the lost key and have a real one to one conversation to verify what happened etc .  A little trust in the honest users and supporters of your fine products would go a long way to getting you even more sales !

The thing that drives me mad is the huge value of the licenses on these keys but the relatively shoddy build quality of the syncrosoft key itself ! ! -- Why hasn't anyone developed at steel carry case that can slip onto a key ring and totally protect the key ?  !   - I have one of the 'Survivor' flash USB keys that is contained in a screw tight canister which is both water proof, smash proof, electrically inert and light weight .  Some one could make a mint out of designing one for the Syncro key !

Lester.

All dongle has a serial no

So it should be possible to disable a false lost dongle

VSL could do like Apple does with a rubbered Iphone !!!!

Best

Cyril

There's no way to disable a working eLicenser as long as it doesn't get connected to the internet, while a cellphone will have to get online by definition to be used.

... but a dongle could be time-bombed, and a periodic phone-home can be mandatory. See Waves TLC

+1

Eduardo

I'd like to give my input on the issue. I would very very VERY much be happy with a time-based re-authorization for the Vienna Key licenses. Let me tell you why.

On Dec 24th of last year (2010) my house was broken into. I was completely cleaned out. I lost a Vox amp, a guitar, several pedals, and worst of all the brand new MacPro i had just purchased about a month earlier. They also stole some of my backup haddrives. When i came home and discovered what had happened i was, needless to say, horrified. As i surveyed the result of this raping of my house, they had just completely yanked the MacPro out from the wall; the must have grabbed it and just ran for the door, as all the connecting cables & cords had then followed them out the door, knocking over my JD-800 on its keyboard stand. There was a trail of cables towards the front door.

Let me skip back to a few weeks earlier. All my USB ports were spoken for. I had been trying to set up my old Hartmann Neuron VS Nuke controller (an X-Y joystick CC), which connects through a USB port. As i had run out of ports, each session i started up, i would have to unplug some USB device in order to plug in my Nuke controller. Then re-plug the other device when i was done. It got rather annoying have to unplug, re-plug, unplug, etc. So i decided to buy a small USB hub adding 4 additional ports, that way i wouldnt have to keep unplugging stuff everytime i started up Logic. I just happened to take my Vienna Key out from the back of my MacPro and insert it into the new USB hub.

This proved to be the smartest thing i had done all year.

Now, flash back to my freshly burglarized home again. A trail of cables and cords led towards the door where this human scum exited my home. Along with powercables and audio cords, lying there in the middle of my living room was the USB hub, with my Vienna Key still safely in place. That was the only saving grace of this whole nauseating experience.

If i had not, just a few weeks earlier, transferred that Vienna Key to the hub, i would have essentially lost all of my VSL licenses. Forever, with no recompense. I thank God that these worthless tweakers who violated my house werent intelligent enough to know exactly HOW valuable that Vienna Key was. Had it been taken, i would have lost -- im estimating -- probably about $8,000 dollars worth of software. Sadly, i cannot get back all the original material i have lost. Nearly 7 years worth of music; like i said, they stole my backup drives as well.

So in my case, i narrowly escaped utter devastation. I pray something like this never happens to any of you. But had my V Key still been plugged in my Mac, or had they taken the USB hub, Vienna's current method of licensing would have killed me. So in light of this, i have probably the biggest " +1 " to add to this thread.

VSL, i implore you to take into consideration an alternate way of dealing with licenses. I dont know if it could be implimented so that there were maybe two different options of licensing for the user to choose from. But to me, having a 3 month (or whatever) call-home relicensing/re-authorizing option would be far less hassle than the misery i would have dealt with had my key been stolen.

Anyhow, that's my two-cents' worth for your consideration :)

-michael

 Michael, that is a sad story. Some suggestions for the future:

1. Insurance. The only snag is that this takes time and you would be without your licences until this was sorted out. However, VSL has been very generous in the past in giving out limited time demo licences, so I'm sure a case could be made.
2. keep 2 backups of all projects. I have an off-site storage (costs £8 a month). Obviously in your situation i would probably have lost a weeks work, but that would be better than 7 years.

I am a believer in flexibility and have suggested many times to Steinberg that they should offer a time limited licence for their own products that would have to be checked every few months.  However, I guess that the caveat for using this method might well be that the licence would cost more, due to the extra hassle for Steinberg. I don't know. However, I would hate this sort of periodic checking, so IMO there has either to be no change or a possibility to use both methods.

The other thing that Steinberg could introduce is something equivalent to the iLok zero downtime. Whilst not perfect by any means, it would be a way of getting over that period where the insurance companies won't pay out until all the paperwork is done.

DG

Any reasonable protection scheme also has to work with start limits as well as time limits. It is far to easy to get a round a time limited protection scheme. That's why all of our demo licenses are limited to both time and number of starts, where the number of starts can be reloaded during the time period.

Great! Then go for number of starts rather than time limits, it would be perfectly fine for me and many other people I guess.

Cesare