I have just found this about "private copy" for UK

@Gusfmm: Whether you meant any offense by your comment or not, I took some; I usually do when somebody describes what I say as 'nonsense'. I don't take any particular pleasure when I send someone to re-read my posts, on the contrary it takes time to respond to that person and type that suggestion out. However it saves a lot more time as I wouldn't have to type all this in this case. And verily, my comment about 'inferior quality' can be interpreted as having 'ethical' implications, and not even remote ones. When you duplicate/triplicate etc. something from a digital source to an analogue tape for someone else - not that that's ethical - you lose a lot of quality, therefore if that someone really admires the content will most likely go out and buy it. When it's offered to him on a digital plate however, he suddenly becomes lazy, parsimonious, idiotic...

No, I didn't agree to the cellular phone company being able to track me down anywhere I am anytime. No, I don't feel uncomfortable letting Microsoft verify the authenticity of my Windows copy every time I get the latest update for a) Microsoft is not obliged to update pirated copies of their products, b) this is not the same example as what is being said here, as with the Microsoft example it would be up to me whether to upgrade or not, whereas with the VSL products we are talking about verifying ourselves periodically in order to use the products and versions for which we have already paid. My insurance does not need to send someone periodically to visit me for any item I have insured that does not wear and tear during the passage of time. Of course they would have to do it with a home or a vehicle for example. Lastly, to the best of my ability and knowledge I clean my computer system daily from all such Internet garbage you mention that companies force-feed it. Anything else?

As far as the periodical synchronization of the eLicencer, why have it every 2-3 months? Why not daily, or even hourly? If your argument was the only consideration, why should we allow a pirate to finish even one track using our key at our expense?...

@Cyril: DBX? I'll keep that in mind. As far as my proposing something else, I propose that government agencies come down really hard on Internet piracy and prosecute for huge damages. Treat it as diligently as they would child pornography. Any street establishment that is cought selling illegal/stolen goods is immediately closed down and the proprietors not just prosecuted, but arrested! Why should that not apply to Internet illegal sites (some don't sell, they share but have some advertisements or subscription fees for quick downloads)? Anybody who helps with the proliferation of stolen goods has to shoulder the responsibility of their criminal actions; be it the server, the company that assists with the downloads, and certainly the troll that uploads / makes available the merchandise in the first place. Why should we continue to shoulder the responsibility collectively, go out of our way, be penalized (restricted) because the relevant government agencies don't take action, or because the government refuses to legislate properly in order to protect intellectual property as well as any other kind of property?

I would welcome the legal backup laws that you quoted (for personal use), if at the same time strict laws for abusers were to be passed - and enforced - concurrently. Finally, and in that mindset and vein, I would - again reluctantly - consider the annual ping to the mother company (let the thieving turd work for a few months with the stolen key, probably some chugga-chugga composter) if some contigencies were satisfactorily addressed, and apply pressure to the authorities to do the job we pay them to do!!

I had a dream .......... Errikos comme back to earth

DBX ---->>> http://www.dbxpro.com/

I have waited to buy any new VSL products since I saw this thread the first time. Now I'm closer than ever to make a new large VSL purchase and I'm curious if the guys on VSL have recognized this thread and if there is any progress in making it more safe for us customers to own a licence, or at least providing more options for me to prove I'm not a pirate. 

I'd really need to buy the vienna cube full library, but if nothing has changed I'm still not sure I'm willing to take the risk.

I just want to add that I'm warning everyone I know about this this issue if they are planning to buy vsl-stuff.

If you can afford to pay big bucks for the Cube than you can afford to insure it.  Why would you pay tens of thousands of $$$$ for a new sports car and not bother about insuring it.  It's the same thing with The Cube.  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me not to insure it. 

I find that here in the states it's atually rather difficult to find anybody to insure software.  VSL is different because they will replace your software for 1/2 price.  That's makes it easier to find insurance for their products because the insurance company doesn't have to pay full price to replace the software.  I know my Homeowner's insurance will cover my VSL products in the event of a fire or if my dongle grows a pair of legs and walks away.  However, if I lose my dongle on the road somewhere I'm S.O.L. (Sh!t Out of Luck).  Therefore my poor dongle will never see the light of day. .AFAIK, if your dongle is damaged, you can send it to VSL and if they can verify the licenses on it then you just have to pay for another key.  I could be wrong on that though. 

Errikos touched on something when he mentioned the "chugga chugga composters" out there.  VSL is in the unique position in that there are not a lot of musicians out there who use orchestral samples and it's just not worth it for a hacker to spend all of that time and effort trying to break a difficult code for something that has such a narrow market place.  Who is he going to sell it to?  He'll go for the easier target like EW or Symphobia and, as far as the Chugga Chugga chimps out there are concerned, East West is good enough for them.

Aside from insurance I don't know what the solution is.  This log in every 60 to 90 days idea would be a pain in the A$$ for me so I'm not for that at all. 

@Cyril said:

I had a dream .......... Errikos comme back to earth

DBX ---->>> http://www.dbxpro.com/

Earth unfortunately is rather a sick place at the moment, I'm keeping a safe distance...

My insurance is ONLY taking care of my dongle, not the licenses that are inside. They insure material NOT imaterial 

SO IF CASE OF FIRE I WILL GET ONLY THE PRICE OF THE DONGLE

You better ask to your insurance a writing ! they are always saying yes yes and yes, but when it is time to pay the answer  might be :

Sorry sir you have not understand we do not cover imaterial !

Best 

Cyril

The most well known theives are the bankers and the insurers ! 

@Another User said:

SO IF CASE OF FIRE I WILL GET ONLY THE PRICE OF THE DONGLE

sir, please note that there is a difference between damage caused by fire, a robbery, a burglery and simply losing something ... i'm sure you would have some official paperwork after your house burned down ... in such a case just make sure your ViennaKey is mentioned in the respective documents.

@cm said:

sir, please note that there is a difference between damage caused by fire, a robbery, a burglery and simply losing something ... i'm sure you would have some official paperwork after your house burned down ... in such a case just make sure your ViennaKey is mentioned in the respective documents.

So you would accept an official e.g. police statement for robbery but not for loss? This does not absolutely hold from the point of view of the reasoning that you cannot reissue licenses for free since someone else could be using the old ones. There is much higher chance that someone else could be using the software in case the ViennaKey gets stolen rathern than lost. Should I cite your email regarding this topic or have I cited correct enough?

My ViennaKey "disappeared" on a train, it could also have been stolen as far as I know, good to know for next time.

Anyways, at least it looks like a step forward. What is the policy for stolen keys then? Can we have a bit of clear information for once?

Hello Christian.

@Cyril said:

SO IF CASE OF FIRE I WILL GET ONLY THE PRICE OF THE DONGLE

sir, please note that there is a difference between damage caused by fire, a robbery, a burglery and simply losing something ... i'm sure you would have some official paperwork after your house burned down ... in such a case just make sure your ViennaKey is mentioned in the respective documents.

If the house is burn, burglery or if some one has took your dongle, the insurance will only give you the replacent of the dongle, not it's licenses

 Are you working with your lawer to give us a solution that follow european laws ?

I dont know if you have noticed there are future user waiting for a solution to buy stuff from you

Best

Cyril

@Cyril said:

You better ask to your insurance a writing ! they are always saying yes yes and yes, but when it is time to pay the answer  might be :

Sorry sir you have not understand we do not cover imaterial !

Well I don't know how things are in your neck of the woods but here in the states when you purchase insurance, material immaterial, doesn't matter.  You purchase insurance based on the value of the item(s) to be insured.  Yes, the dongle itself is only worth about $40.00, I get it, but the licenses it contains increase that value.  My insurance company wouldn't insure a $40.00 item anyway because the value is too small.  I explained to them that the Vienna key is like a key to a car that can't be duplicated in any way and without the key the car is useless.  They understood and said they have no problem insuring the licenses on the key under the condition that I don't travel with it. If I do, I'm on my own.  If nothing else but the Vienna key disapeared, they won't cover it. 

My homeowner's insurance covers loses of up to $50,000.  Your everyday average shmuck thief wouldn't know what that little piece of plastic is and would be more interested in the computer it's attached to.  He may even be inclined enough to remove it as he's unplugging everything.  In the event that he does take everything I know that I'm covered.                  

@jasensmith said:

My homeowner's insurance covers loses of up to $50,000.  Your everyday average shmuck thief wouldn't know what that little piece of plastic is and would be more interested in the computer it's attached to.  He may even be inclined enough to remove it as he's unplugging everything.  In the event that he does take everything I know that I'm covered.                  

I have looked in Wiki about US, you are allowed to do private copies !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy

A lot of countries are paying a levy to allow private copy

So again VSL is  NOT abiding US law

@Another User said:

private copying levy (also known as blank media tax or levy) is a government-mandated scheme in which a special tax or levy is charged on purchases of recordable media.

in german speaking europe it is widely known as *Urheberrechtsabgabe (URA)* and is also charged on photo-copiers, scanners, usb-sticks, CD-Rs, DVD-Rs, video-tapes, sometimes harddrives, ect.

VSL actually encourages you to make backup copies of your installer (or installed) files, especially if you downloaded them, at your convenience.

@cm said:

VSL actually encourages you to make backup copies of your installer (or installed) files, especially if you downloaded them, at your convenience.

so allow us to do a copy of the licenses too 😉

Are you working on finding a solution or do you don't care ?

Best

Cyril

If VSL, EW, etc. decide to allow the simple copying of licences - thereby enabling inscrutable slime to begin proliferating their products, either by selling them short, or by simply sharing them, I will never buy anything else from these companies ever again! I was offered the full Pro Edition for free all those years ago and I declined that offer (others of course didn't...). Instead, I paid all those thousands of €€, when I could have accepted the full pirated library, and spent all that money on much needed hardware, sound-proofing the studio, etc.

I expect of these companies not only to protect themselves, but to also protect our investments in them and, within reason (i.e. without making us legitimate customers suffer unnecessarily), make it difficult/impossible for unethical competitors of ours to gain illicit advantages over us in the industry. If those people want to work with the same tools as I do, they will just have to pay for them! Otherwise, loose-security companies will be forcing at least my hand to balance things out.

@Errikos said:

I expect of these companies not only to protect themselves, but to also protect our investments 

We all do, but in a way which is not suffocating for costumers 

@cesare.magri said:

DRAFT #1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  

Users complained about VSL not providing important information regarding some policies related, in particular, to the USB copy-protection system, called the ViennaKey. This is USB dongle, which is required to run VSL software since the introduction of Vienna Instruments, is required to activate and stored licenses purchased from VSL. However, no information is given by VSL about the following facts:

* There is no way to backup a licenses after it has been stored on a ViennaKey. Also, there is no way to temporally de-activate a license. Once a license is activated on a ViennaKey it has to remain on one ViennaKey (although licenses can be moved between different ViennaKeys).  

* If a ViennaKey is lost or stolen, the user will use the ability to use all the licenses which are stored on that ViennaKey. It has been reported that, as a standard procedure, users are propose to purchase replacement for the licenses on the lost/stolen ViennaKey for 50% of the original price. However, no clear standard procedure has been made public by VSL concerning this issue and users some users have reported different procedures such as purchasing additional new licenses in order to obtain a replacement for the lost/stolen ones. Questioned by the users about these issues, starting from April 2010, VSL has added the following statement to its Terms of License "Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH".  

* If the warranty period of the ViennaKey has expired and the ViennaKey brakes or starts malfunctioning the user will be charged a fixed amount per license to replace licenses after purchasing a new Vienna Key. This amount has been reported by some users to be approximately 30 USD, but no clear policy has been made public by VSL regarding this issue. Additionally, it is not known what the policy is for key that are damaged in such a way that the serial number cannot be read (such as in case of a fire).  

* VSL does not make publicly available the nominal fee which needs to be paid in order to sell licenses. This has been speculated to be 10% of the retail price of the license or 70 USD minimum per license. Licenses cannot be auctioned on public channels such as eBay. 

No comments so far? Let's post it like this: people and Vienna will still be able to modify it on the Wikipedia page (which is probably easier too).

Hello Christian

Looks like that VSL do not care !

No answer from you  !

Do you want me to get the insurance to be able to sue VSL as you do not respect the European laws " Allow private copy", as soon I return from my holidays ?

Best

Cyril

dear cyril, since you're addressing (obviously) me directly and personally ...

@Cyril said:

you do not respect the European laws " Allow private copy"

ahead - this is not european law, it is national law of the respective country though EU has issued several guidelines.

the respective regulations are varying from country to country, the more since copyright is not the same as german *urheberrecht* (sorry, i don't know the french term).

whereas in UK and US there is a fair-use exception for private copying of creative works, in almost all other countries this type of allowance does not exist and copying is basically forbidden - with certain defined exceptions.

also there is always a difference regarding digital and non-digital works and it is always an exception from a prohibition, not a right.

eg. in austria we had a change lately which states that copying digital work is explicitely only allowed for persons, which means that generally no company can be entitled to make copies of digtal work without beeing allowed to do so by the author.

eg. in US there is currently a discussion going on betwenn the music and film industry and the Computer and Communications Industry Association (CCIA) about redefining the fair-use clause.

currently there are several proceedings going on at the european court (eg. from spain) regarding regulation of (digital) private copies.

and again (as already posted earlier): private copies do always refer to works, never to licenses.

allright, so I finally bought the full cube with help of the student discount. I hope I won't need to blame myself for that.

Now I can just hope that there will come options to transform my license to limited time licenses that requires internet connection but removes the risk of having to buy all this 50% again. Or at least, why cannot VSL itself be the insurance company that easier can calculate the risk and insure the licenses, instead of an insurance company that does not understand what I want to insure and probably will ruin me without paying me the money when it all comes down to a lost key? 

Now I have distributed my licenses on 3 different keys, so that not all licenses can disappear on the same time, but it does still feel uncomfortable.

I hope VSL are taking this seriously and I would really want to see this issue taken care about! 

//Felix