Has VSL abandoned Finale?

[A.S.]

Open letter to VSL:

First I want to express my gratitude to Andi and his work with VSL and different notation programs. This is great and he has a great knowledge on both VSL and Sibelius/Finale/Cubase etc.

My concern is the lack of attention for those who are using VSL and Finale. This is not a problem for myself as I have worked with this combination a couple of years now and have managed to develop a workflow that works more or less ok for the Vienna Instruments I use in my work. I have previously posted some expanded Finale HP prefs on this site together with some general tips and tricks for Finale/VSL.

The problem is that I'm very often contacted by composers, both from my country both also from people seeking advice from all around the world, who want to know more about using VSL together with Finale. I was contacted by a very successful composer some time ago (who is played by orchestras all around the world) and he was about to upgrade his entire studio. Money was not an issue... He told me he wanted the best combination with Finale that money could buy! I gave him some general advice on computer hardware and also explaned how I work but in the end I had to dissuade him from getting VSL.

The main problem was that I felt that currently VSL is focusing on Sibelius and Cubase and there is really not that much support for the Finale users. Sibelius has Soundsets for the entire Cube and Cubase is not far behind. Finale has only HP prefs for Vienna SE and those were posted two years ago (at least). There is also no guide like the "Optimizing Sibelius Playback" for Finale. Like I said earlier, this is not something I need myself, but if I shall recommend VSL as a valid option for Finale, I want to be sure that those who invest money and time in this really gets something that work "out of the box". I'm also rather active on the MakeMusic Finale forum and I'm constantly asked by other members how VSL and Finale work together. At the moment I say that VSL is a fantastic library but there is not that much attention and development from VSL. But I hope this may change?

Best wishes

Albert

[andi]

Hello Albert!

We didn't abandon Finale. Don't worry. ;-)
The Human Playback Preferences have been expanded with Percussion Maps for Finale 2010 only a few months ago.

Best,
Andi

[A.S.]

@Another User said:

There is a bug which makes sending two keyswitches for articulation changes unreliable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I have made MakeMusic aware of this some time ago.

Do you mean sending a keyswitch and a CC value at the same time? (To move vertically in the VI matrix)

What doesn't work? I've had problems when the CC#1 value would revert to zero a little to early sometimes and therefore causing hanging notes. Is that what you have experienced?

Any problems like this is connected to Human Playback and I guess you have contacted Robert P directly as well? Sometimes I get the feeling that MakeMusic and Robert don't communicate that well... 😉

[andi]

@Another User said:

Any problems like this is connected to Human Playback and I guess you have contacted Robert P directly as well? Sometimes I get the feeling that MakeMusic and Robert don't communicate that well... 😉

 

 

Done that, but unfortunately didn't get any answer.

Best,

Andi

[A.S.]

@Albert S said:

Any problems like this is connected to Human Playback and I guess you have contacted Robert P directly as well? Sometimes I get the feeling that MakeMusic and Robert don't communicate that well... 😉

 

 

Done that, but unfortunately didn't get any answer.

Best,

Andi

Thanks Andi for your information, things are becoming a lot clearer now. I had some contact with Robert some years ago on the Northern Sounds forum where he helped me out with a few things. He IS a difficult person to get in touch with (I have also tried and failed a couple of times). I'm not sure why. Maybe he's to busy or maybe he is not interested, I really don't know.

Although Robert is the creator of Finale's playback engine "Human Playback" it would be a shame if it were impossible to combine two of the most advanced music applications available (VSL & Finale) just because one person doesn't respond to an e-mail? Don't you agree? Is there a plan B? 😊

[andi]

It was not only one e-mail.
I'm also in touch with Phil Holst (QA Engineer) who told me that solving these issues is high on their priority list for the next version of Finale.

[michelp]

As another Finale user, I have followed this thread with great interest. All I want to say is that I share the same concerns as Albert S. A better integration between Vienna & Finale and detailed tutorials would not only be welcome, but key to the success of both platforms.

[RainerL]

I also agree to what Albert S and michelp wrote.   I´m still a finale user but if there´s another crossgrade promotion I will think about a change to Sibelius knowing that there´s more support for the customer´s needs.

[A.S.]

@RainerL said:

I´m still a finale user but if there´s another crossgrade promotion I will think about a change to Sibelius knowing that there´s more support for the customer´s needs.

Just a quick word about changing notation software.

Most users on this forum (and probably the majority of VSL users?) are mainly concerned with playback. Some are professional film composers and use VSL as a part of their "end product".

BUT:

Most professional users of Finale use this software because of the more or less unlimited possibilities to edit your notated score. Playback is appreciated but not essential for engravers, copyists, composers (of concert music) etc.

It is highly unlikely for these users to switch to another notation software just because playback with a certain library is not working. Especially if they have worked with Finale for 15-20 years and all their scores are in Finale-format. They will change to another library instead.

And since there are a lot of question marks concerning how well Finale and VSL integrates, many notation pros hesitate to purchase VSL products. At least, this is my experience from the Finale forums and how my composer colleagues are thinking.

I think that VSL and Finale could be a great combination for both professional users and hobbyists. It just needs some more development, both from Finale (ie MakeMusic) and VSL.

[michael.matthews]

Hi:

I am coming to this thread a bit late. I have forwarded the contents of this thread to Phil at Make Music. He tells me that they continue to try to address the communication problems between HP and VSL. I can only hope that both VSL and Make Music take a more active role in trying to improve the situation. These are both such great products.

Michael

[A.S.]

I just discovered that Finale 2011 is available for pre-order. From the read-me file about Fin2011 you can read:

Human Playback
Human Playback no longer causes unexpected CC11 data.

Errors regarding inserting keyswitches have been resolved.

Dynamics now play back correctly with Garritan Sound Effects.

The interpretation of trill accidentals has been improved.

Additional instruments including harpsichord and accordion are now supported.

I don't know if this will solve any Finale/VSL problems discussed in this thread but one can always hope... ;-)

[DaveTubaKing]

Why, in May 2010 is it called Finale 2011?

Sounds like a few bug fixes to me!

[michael.matthews]

@Albert S said:

I just discovered that Finale 2011 is available for pre-order. From the read-me file about Fin2011 you can read:

Human Playback
Human Playback no longer causes unexpected CC11 data.

Errors regarding inserting keyswitches have been resolved.

Dynamics now play back correctly with Garritan Sound Effects.

The interpretation of trill accidentals has been improved.

Additional instruments including harpsichord and accordion are now supported.

I don't know if this will solve any Finale/VSL problems discussed in this thread but one can always hope... 😉

That would be great, especially if the CC11 and keyswitch problems have been improved! Thanks for posting that, Albert.

Michael

[rosflute]

Whoopee ! I've just started using Finale 2011 and I'm delighted to be able to report that VSL seems to be working a lot better in tandem with the Kontakt2player and as a consequence at long last I've actually got a VSL saxophone that sounds like a saxophone ! It has been a huge disappointment previously that I could find no work around that would induce the solo saxophone to sound really good when playing a notation file with Finale HumanPlayback. Let's hope that this spurs VSL to regard Finale and it's users more lovingly/commercially. enjoy! Roz

[bogdan]

 I agree with rosflute,

Finale 2011 & VSL are working better at this time ...way better than 2009 even 2010 ..it looks like the improvements from Human Playback are indeed good and reliable at least with what I tried ...( vienna SE )!!

Hoping as well that master Andi is willing to try to develop at least half from the sound sets that he did for Sibelius. I have both platforms (Sibelius and Finale) but I would love to have some previous works with Finale to be done with such a great library as VSL !! It seems that converting files from one program to another are still not quite qualitative at this time !

all the best

[andi]

I already did several tests with Finale 2011 Human Playback. It's true that some bugs have been fixed and everything works better. However there is still one drawback. Custom text commands don't work properly if they need different actions for different kinds of instruments. Our bigger collections would have to rely heavily on these Custom Text commands. The MakeMusic guys are already aware of this and hopefully there will be a solution with the next update.

Best,
Andi

[bogdan]

 Thanks Andi for keeping us informed about the work progress with finale sound sets. Somehow, I had a feeling that finale is still not ready 100% to take full advantages from big libraries- maybe next update, as you said, will be the key to freedom !

thanks again and all the best

[A.S.]

@andi said:

I already did several tests with Finale 2011 Human Playback. It's true that some bugs have been fixed and everything works better. However there is still one drawback. Custom text commands don't work properly if they need different actions for different kinds of instruments. Our bigger collections would have to rely heavily on these Custom Text commands. The MakeMusic guys are already aware of this and hopefully there will be a solution with the next update.

Best,
Andi

Hi Andie,

I'm sorry to report that the problem with CC#11 data is not being sent on phrases that start with shorter note values and don't contain any hairpins still exist in Finale 2011. We discussed this bug in HP in private mails earlier this spring.

Do you know if MM is working on this bug as well?

thanks

Albert

[andi]

Hi Albert!

Sorry, but I don't know if MM works on that. I guess you have to ask them.

Best,
Andi

[rosflute]

Hmm - me thinks I spoke too soon ! the staccato saxophone sounds great in Finale but legato and HP donot get along. Anybody know any good ideas/hints for making beautiful legato sax sounds with Finale? As soon as I try to make the legato Alto Sax sound lovely with Finale HP it turns into a 'cello!!! Andi, keep bashing away at the MakeMusic guys - I've been using Finale since 1992 but I am getting the impression that these days they are less knowledgeable and less motivated by the musical/playback side of the business. And everybody out there - is it time to end my 20 year relationship with Finale and invest in Sibelius ?