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huh? is that directed to me? Oh i see you brought along the quacking ducks 😊 Link doesnt work tho.@svonkampen said:
PSY-Clone: A / B comparison between Apass Celli followed by HS Celli (courtesy of Psy-Clone). I beg to differ about the strident / harsh thing being discussed here. http://10.0.16.246:15871/cgi-bin/blockpage.cgi?ws-session=4093710770 SvK
What is the correct link please?
I would be interested to hear the comparison.
I pre-ordered HS Gold because I have LASS, Appassionata St., Vienna SE + and a bunch of the VSL download instruments. Generally, I find VSL to be very real and the player the best of any VI out there. I'm not just saying this on this forum- I say it everywhere. I do find I have to tweak releases on the instruments but it's no biggie. And, Vienna Ensemble Pro has made life amazingly great. However, I do hear some sonorities in the expanded HS demo that I personally haven't been able to achieve using my existing libraries. There is an attractive quality to sitting down and playing really expressive strings with little programming. I'm a musician first and foremost and like to work on music ideas rather than futzing around with making something sound sonically great.
@aron said:
In my opinon the most important thing missing from vienna is no active control over the vibrato.Somthing that hollywood strings has.any comments on the effectiveness of this from hw strings users would be appreciated because i have yet to hear a demo where this is demonstrated.I really hope vienna has this as a high priorty because it would make the strings far more expressive
There is active control over vibrato. It is called crossfade. There are many variations of vibrato within the VSL strings already.
You want an artificial control that morphs senza vibrato with vibrato digitally? Perhaps that is done on some phony sounding things or sample modeling of various kinds. However, the VSL approach has been "pristine" in that it tries to present the authentic sound of original recordings unaltered by digital fakery. This makes it not quite as mindless to use as some other libraries, but infinitely more valuable in lasting musical quality, because you are using actual recordings of musicians, not digital effects which any moron can do nowadays.
On this question of changing from vibrato to non vibrato, there are already patches that are no vibrato, progressive vibrato, espressivo vibrato vs. normal vibrato, etc. So simply by layering those, you can do a crossfade to change the sound.
However, you will notice that the levels of vibrato in Appassionata strings for one example are already very appropriate for the dynamics. In other words, rarely would you hear heavy vibrato with pp. And it is normal to have more on louder dynamics - for more expressive vibrato. This is exactly what happens in the layered samples, accessed either by velocity or crossfading that works perfectly with the ensemble.
This question, of needing artificially morphed vibrato levels, is of very little practical significance to me in doing the most complex arrangements, especially when one hears the natural sounding vibrato of the Appassionata strings which I have tended to default to these days.
You can do non vibrato/vibrato crossfades in all Collections, apart from Orchestral Strings. Actually that's not quite true. You can crossfade from non-vibrato to vibrato, but the patches that have vibrato are rather anemic in nature, and not really up to the task, IMO.
What you can't do in any of the Collections is non vibrato/vibrato/molto vibrato crossfades, and this is a shame.
DG
At that point you should consider hiring an orchestra ;)
Until date, I think VSL still offers the sample libraries with the highest realism and musical behaviour, especially when used in VI PRO.
It really responds to orchestration skills in real life.
Cheers,
Bart
@bartdelissen said:
At that point you should consider hiring an orchestra ;)
Until date, I think VSL still offers the sample libraries with the highest realism and musical behaviour, especially when used in VI PRO.
It really responds to orchestration skills in real life.
Cheers,
Bart
Or record your own library. [;)]
Seriously, the only Collection that you couldn't do what I want is the Orchestral strings, because the patches don't exist, but the reason you can't do it with the others, is that you can only set up a 2 patch xFade in VI Pro, and you would need a 3 patch xFade to do what I want.
DG
Recording your own library would be very common 5 years ago. But it's not that neccesary anymore. If you really want to go to the next step, just hire the musicians you need. You could still make it a hybrid production if you like.
Can't you work around the doulbe crossfade on two tracks then? soft-middle on one track middle-expressive on a second one? Limitations stimulate creativity ;)
Bart
@bartdelissen said:
Can't you work around the doulbe crossfade on two tracks then? soft-middle on one track middle-expressive on a second one? Limitations stimulate creativity 😉
Having to use more than one track per instrument would be like going back to the dark ages for me. Yes, of course I can find a way round it, but it is no very elegant and the whole point of VI Pro is elegance, IMO.
DG
As far as authenticity and "digital fakery" are concerned, every time you change the dynamic level you are effectivley using morphed samples and to great effect.(
That is not true. Changing the volume level of a sample is profoundly different from morphing between waveforms such as what you are suggesting, and does not involve any change in the harmonic/acoustic structure of a recording, only its amplitude. That does not result in a different timbre, only a difference in recording level.
btw I would add that in looking over the Cube patches for violins just now, you have selection between not only the naturally ocurring vibrato changes between 4 velocity layers, but also in Chamber STrings - no vib, vib and espress. vib; Orchestral Strings no vib and regular vib; and Appassionata regular vib and "strong" vib which is an extremely espressivo vib beyond the already very expressive vib on the main samples. All of these have embedded within them multiple vibrato levels inherent in the different dynamics (which you might hear very clearly with the Orchestral strings pp layer which is almost senza vibrato). And of course all of them can be crossfaded, which with ensembles sounds so much like actual prerecorded dynamic changes that you literally cannot tell the difference. So that is why I say there is already a lot of control over vibrato within the already recorded strings that artificial morphed-waveform changes would not be superior to.
@DG said:
Having to use more than one track per instrument would be like going back to the dark ages for me. Yes, of course I can find a way round it, but it is no very elegant and the whole point of VI Pro is elegance, IMO.
I remember my Gigastudio tracks for a large project. Each instrument had about 10 to 16 sub-tracks just for one line of music. For example, an entire track for two notes not covered elsewhere. A nightmare.
I have to do it in my template for strings to switch between poly and mono mode...
Ah, but that's a different matter. If I have a couple of polyphonic lines, there is no way i would do it on one track, because music just doesn't work that way. If the phrase is different, the controller information has to be different, so I never use the polyphonic mode.
DG
Yes, that is where you are not being forced to do more, but actually the same, as the original sound would be doing. I say "sound" because of course one is not doing as much as a live player, but one is trying to emulate the individuality of a single player or group of players. So it is good to deliberately separate tracks for individual players.
There is one thing I have separated tracks with that contradicts this - timpani. The reason is, I often write a sforzando attack followed by a sudden pianissimo roll followed by a crescendo. If you do that on one track, you will find that you have to suddenly crossfade down the roll, which sounds weird. But if you have a fortissimo single note starting on one track without crossfade, at the exact same time your pianissimo roll starts on another with crossfade, you can do perfectly the often-heard dramatic timpani sforzando attack followed by a crescendo roll. I am always needing that. Probably a need for cliches but whatever...
I am thinking that in VE5 you could program one layer to respond to crossfade but the other layer not. Is that true DG? I have not tried it yet and have persisted in doing it the way I used to.
@William said:
There is one thing I have separated tracks with that contradicts this - timpani. The reason is, I often write a sforzando attack followed by a sudden pianissimo roll followed by a crescendo. If you do that on one track, you will find that you have to suddenly crossfade down the roll, which sounds weird. But if you have a fortissimo single note starting on one track without crossfade, at the exact same time your pianissimo roll starts on another with crossfade, you can do perfectly the often-heard dramatic timpani sforzando attack followed by a crescendo roll. I am always needing that. Probably a need for cliches but whatever...
In VIP 2 I have single notes with Xfade off and rolls with it on for exactly the reasons you describe.
DG
