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  3. Orchestral simulations with fixed tuning sound poor

  • Orchestral simulations with fixed tuning sound poor

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    We all know: Poor tuned music sounds poor. But probably many of us don't know that equal temperament is a bad tuning. Its merit is: It allows making music throgh all keys. Its evil is: All chords, espacially the major chords sound dissonant. The reason is: The thirds are detuned by about 1/7 halftone. This is audible. For everyone, not only for fine ears.

    Members of this forum, having qualified experience as musician in symphony orchestras or in chamber music ensembles with string and wind instruments know that in multivoiced musi it is necessary to tune each tone slightly upwards or downwards according to its function in the actual harmonic situation. The result are tuning relations according or at least very near to just intonation. The same tuning behavior you will find at well educated singers in chamber choirs.

    It is a shame that most electronic musical instruments and musical applications present only fixed tuning. It is a shame for the technology of the 21st century. When listening all the lovingly edited musical example at these VSL sites I reflect whether the editors don't hear this tuning defect - or whether they hear it and don't know what the reason is - or whether they know it, but say "there is no help!". Indeed, conventional microtuning cannot solve this problem. But there exists since some years an advanced technology, called "Hermode Tuning". I am speaking about a baby of our company, therefore it is allowed to be sceptic. Nevertheless, read, listen and judge!

    Hermode Tuning is a self-correcting dynamic tuning. Its programme can be implemented into electronic musical instruments or into electronic musical applications. Hermode Tuning gets all Note-on and Note-off messages in real time and it sends back the corrected tuning values equally in real time. It holds the necessary retuning steps below audibility. In this way it imitates the tuning behavior of human musicians. Hermode Tuning works with about 60 fine tuned steps for each note (or about 7,000 steps for the complete Midi range), nevertheless the tuning result stays very tight to the default equal temperament.

    BTW: The tuning corrections have to be updated at nearly every new Note on and Note off. Maybe, you do't believe that this will be possible, but believe me, it is necessary, it is possible and it works.

    Hermode Tuning is a feature of the music editing programme CAPELLA with its VSL OEM library and of LOGIC. NeverthelessLOGIC user with VSL orchestra have a problem. Via LOGIC and the ESX24 sampler it is possible to control the tuning of the implemented samples but it is not possible to control the actual VSL applications. I possess the "Opus1" (thanks to Mr. and Mrs. Tucmandl), so I am able to edit musical examples with this VSL samples and control them by Hermode Tuning. The members of VSL like Hermode Tuning "in principle", but they hesitate to implement it as they don't know whether the user will recognize or honor this sound improvement.

    Therefore my request: Listen and compare our musical examples, edited each on one hand with Hermode Tuning (HMT) and on the other hand with equal temperament (TMP) at our website:

    www.hermode.com/html/hermode-tuning-examples en.html

    Please begin with "Vom Himmel her" as this is one of the most impressive examples. Other, more subtile examples require perhals more "open ears". You know, the human ears requires 10 - 15 minutes of attentive listening. After this time you will hear much more than on the begin.

    I would be very pleases if you would send back your statement. Even if your opinion is different to mine.
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    Vsl stated that they would work on an implementation for microtuning.

    The examples on your website sound convincing to me but I do not have any idea how this would be implemented in a sequencer set up.

    Could it be a midi plug-in? It would be needed to analyse harmonies across different voices (midi tracks), then calculate a correction offset for each voice etc....      Doesnt seem like an easy task but I agree that something has to be improved. Also there are other tuning system, especially arabic and Indian ones that are not possible to realise with Vsl at the moment. So maybe Hermode tuning could fix some of the problems related to well tempered tuning but dont forget that there are other tuning systems which are not just exotic and marginal.
  • G
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    For supporting Hermode Tuning by VSL there exist different possibilities.

    1. VSL supports by its applications a Midi sysex, designated for the transmission of tuning data from the sequencer to the plugins (Midi single note tuning change real time). VSL possesses the relevant informations. In this way Logic user could be able to control actual VSL applications with Hermode Tuning. Logic users with the Opus1 can use this feature already today. But not users of Cubase and other sequencers, as Steinberg until now couldn't make up its finally mind for implementing Hermode Tuning. But as agreed with Steinberg we actually develop a kind of Midi plugin for Cubase. Maybe we can realize it within this year, but there exist still some technical problems.

    2. VSL implements Hermode Tuning directly in its applications. This is possible, in principle, but we don't know how simple or difficult this will be. Anyway, VSL possesses our programme code. The question is, how VSL will set its priorities for new features.In case, VSL will implement Hermode Tuning directly, it will be unimportant, whether the sequencer will have this feature. Even for stand alone application it would be recommandable.

    Regarding the problem of analyzing harmonic structures and controlling the tuning in real time - these problems have been solved and refined since some years. Hermode Tuning is an existing feature of LOGIC.

    Arabian and indian tuning sytems are not my musical world. Yours???

    I don't understand your last sentence. I understand: The tuning behavior of western ensembles is exotic??? I am sure, I am misunderstanding you. Could you please explain me this sentence?

    Thank you for being convinced by our musical examples.
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    @gblume said:

    Arabian and indian tuning sytems are not my musical world. Yours???

     

     

    They're not mine either but VSL has heard an earful from plenty of users out there who are practically demanding that they rewrite their entire product line to incorporate some kind of microtunality function that allows such Arabian and Indian tuning systems.  Or, at the very least, an upgrade which allows it.
  • G
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    I understand. Nevertheless it is funny that many users reflect in exotic tuninmg system, presuming that western music is satisfactorly tuned with equal temperament. It is too bad that they know few or nothing in the complexity of tuning behavior in real orchestras.
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    @gblume said:

     It is too bad that they know few or nothing in the complexity of tuning behavior in real orchestras.

     

    Most orchestras know nothing about tuning either. [;)]

    DG
  • G
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    This leads to the question whether Hermode Tuning should create a programme variant with a living tuning still worse than equal temperament. In this way the tuning behavior of some amateur orchestras could be simulated.[;)]

    BTW: Did you listen to our sond examples and did you realize the differences between Hermode Tuning and equal temperament? And - if yes - what's your impression?
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    @gblume said:

    This leads to the question whether Hermode Tuning should create a programme variant with a living tuning still worse than equal temperament. In this way the tuning behavior of some amateur orchestras could be simulated.

    BTW: Did you listen to our sond examples and did you realize the differences between Hermode Tuning and equal temperament? And - if yes - what's your impression?

     

    I haven't had time to listen to your examples yet, but broadly I agree that  tuning is important, which is why I do a lot of tweaking with the Pitch Wheel.

    DG
  • W
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    I listened to the samples and think I could notice a more "pleasing" quality to the hermode tuning. I think this is an interesting piece of software that would be very valuable to have, as I have often wanted to make subtle variations of tuning.  If this could be done as a normal function of the sequencing it would be great as another tool in avoiding the mechanical repetitious quality inherent in samples as well as creating a more natural sounding harmony. 

  • G
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    Using the ptchwheel... For a satisfying result you should possess 12 pitchwheels, each one controlling one of the 12 halftones of the octave and 14 hands (2 for the keys and 12 for the pitchwheels).Cuttlefishes could handle this, for a human musician it would be a problematic technology.

    If ever you will find time to listen to our examples, please say me your impressions.
  • W
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     Those examples sound very good. 

    I wish you had software that did not have to be within a DAW but could be used between whatever sequencer  a person wants to use, and the sample playback.  I like to use a sequencer on a computer separate from the sample playback computer which is Vienna Ensemble standalone. In this case it would be good to have something implementing your tuning program in between. 

  • P
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    I love the pure intonation in your examples. Is there any probability of Hermode ever becoming available in Digital Performer?

    As a pianist, I'd be interested in hearing piano samples re-processed this way, so you'd hear resonances that are impossible in reality. (Except for, you know, guys like Lamont Young ...)

    --Mark Arnest
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    In abstract it is possible to implement Hermode Tuning into every electronic musical application. But when writing to the concerning companies we almost get no answer. And when speaking with the developers we get the impression that they don't understand the background or the significance of such a tool. Frankly, speaking with users of graphic applications and telling them that 16 or 32 millions of colors are better than 256 is a simple task. But making understanding that about 7,000 frequencies sound better than 128 is a hard work. Most people don't know how fine human ears are.

    There is only one help: You write to the concerning company and make some pressure. I wish you many success.

    BTW: Piantoq has announced us that they will implement Hermode Tuning occasionally. In case you are not fixed to MOTU, please write them and ask them.

    www.pianoteq.com

    AFAIK Vienna has a Boesendorfer piano at its disposal. In case they would decide to overtake Hermode Tuning you could use also this piano.
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    William wrote the following post at Tue, Jan 12 2010 19:11:

       I like to use a sequencer on a computer separate from the sample playback computer which is Vienna Ensemble standalone. In this case it would be good to have something implementing your tuning program in between. 

    We actually discuss this with Vienna. Maybe your statement will be helpful
  • W
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    I feel this kind of program is very important for such highly detailed and sensitive samples as VSL.  The reason is that not only does the tuning sound more beautiful, but also it is good for creating a less mechanistic sampled intonation.  I hope you can get it implemented.
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    I agree. Players (orchestras) are always tuning themselves to each other while performing, and this would allow us to inject some of that "realness" that adds life to samples.
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    Last question (for now): How does your system deal with more complex tonal harmonies? For instance, one of Beethoven's "Diabelli" variations contains the chord E/G#/C/B-flat. Would it know that the root of the chord is "C," and adjust accordingly?

    --Mark Arnest
  • W
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    gblume,

    thanks for posting this and creating the examples on your webpage. To me the difference is glaringly obvious and I am strongly for implementing this system in VSL. The Hermode Tuning examples sound much more natural. For me it is an immediate emotional response, not an analytical one. It's like the HMT examples take a certain pressure of the listening experience and it makes it easy to just relax and get absorbed into the music - which is one thing that is often a challenge with music created with samples. I think this is an important step towards making sample based music more believable and emotionally compelling. I was aware of Hermode Tuning in Logic before and was frustrated that I could not use it fully.

        I dread having to go back to my TMP samples now :-(

    please VSL, implement this. 

    If licensing Hermode Tuning would cost serious extra money, I'd be happy to pay for an upgrade that includes it.
  • J
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    The tuning dilema is well illustrated in preformance of Vln and Piano duos in pre atonal music. The Violinist instinctivly plays true 5th, leading tone 3-4 cents higher than a major 3rd, etc, while the pianist of course can't, so the two are never really in tune like a string quartet would be. Personally my head hurts after 15 min of duos or trios with piano.
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    pianoguy wrote the following post at Fri, Jan 15 2010 23:26:

    Last question (for now): How does your system deal with more complex tonal harmonies? For instance, one of Beethoven's "Diabelli" variations contains the chord E/G#/C/B-flat. Would it know that the root of the chord is "C," and adjust accordingly?

    --Mark Arnest

    This is a wise question. No, this harmony will not be corrected as it is a dissonant structure of an augmented triad, C-E-G# and it is not possible to tune the thirds C-E and E-G# to a pure ratio of 5/4 without bringing G#(Ab)-C to an extreme dissonant distance.But according to the proceding notes this harmonic structure mostly will not be tuned to exact equal temperament but to a slightly unequal tuning.

    The background of this tuning behavior is a musical reason and a mathematical reason.

    The musical one: Correcting the tuning to just intonation brings only consonant structures e.g. fifths, major thirds, major chords and minor chords to a better sound. Indeed, Hermode Tuning doesn't limit the tuning corrections to these harmonies, it corrects note combinations until 6 different simultaneous ringing notes "if there doesn't occur an internal conflict" as mentioned above. But such complex harmonies, even when being corrected, sound slightly different than with equal temperament, but they sond still dissonant 

    In case you will ask why we correct also such complex structures: This supports the horizontal stability. You know that in living music the harmonic structures don't follow each other clearly disjoined. The beginning and the ending of the notes overlap each other. Imagine a simple harmonic change from C-E-G to B-D-F#. At the passage from the first to the second structure there could occur for a short moment note combinations of e.g. C-E-G-F# to C-E-G-D-F#  to E-B-D-F#. Everyone of this structure has to be and  will be corrected in real time.

    The mathematic reason: As already mentioned above some note combinations show ambiguos relations. BTW: Hermode Tuning doesn't position the root to equal temperament, correcting only the notes apart from that. All notes of every harmonic structure interact themselves. A major triad in its default position is tuned to (numbers shown as deviation in Cents from equal temperament) root +4, major third -10, fifth +6, a minor triad to root -6, minor third + 10, fifth -4. In both examples the som of deviation is 0. Depending of the effectvely played music this values could be slightly higher or deeper.

    You said: Last question... but if any you have questions to this position method, ask please.

    Additionally, visiting the following link could be helpful

    www.hermode.com/html/tuning-history_en.html

    There you will find presented at the end - see right at this page - an oversight over the four fundamental and different ideas in programme controlled tuning. The fourth of them shows Hermode Tuning and comparing its function by note examples and in comparision with the other ideas could be helpful.