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  4. Mixing Orchestral Simulations w/ Delay

  • Mixing Orchestral Simulations w/ Delay

    P
    P
    Greetings All, I have read recently about a technique involving mixing an orchestra with delay on certain sections. As I understand it, the idea is to simulate the distance of the particular orchestral choir from the wall, listener or both. Of course we are talking about very short delay times, between 7 - 25ms. For example the percussion section is usually pretty close to the back wall, say 5-7 feet so this would correspond to approximately 5-7 ms of delay. French horns play with their bells facing the back wall, so 20ms of delay. My question is, does anyone out there use these techniques? Would it make that much difference in the mix? And, most importantly, is the logic behind this technique sound. I am a little skeptical about this approach, but I am always striving for the highest level of realism in my mixes. I hope to hear some opinions on this. -Peter Scartabello http://www.myspace.com/peterscartabello
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    Well, first and early reflections are an important part for authentic depth within an orchestral mix - but just one part. Other aspects would be the preceived loudness and a shift in the frequency profile of an instrument in different distances, less intrinsic stereo information, phase cancellations, and of course reverb. Each instrument will act differently, though, due to its unique sound radiation pattern. All of this is of course highly dependant on the architecture of a room, its surfaces, and the relative positions of instruments and listener (i.e.: microphones) in it.

    If you are aiming for highest realism, but don't want to take care for all of these issues (and some more) manually, I suggest you take a closer look at Vienna MIR. This software was created exactly with this goal in mind.

    ->  [URL]http://vsl.co.at/en/211/497/1687/455/1287.htm[/URL]

    HTH,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • P
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    Thanks Dietz. Yes, I would rather just focus on writing music, but I am forced too takes mixing/mastering into my own hands because of budget restrictions. The MIR software looks amazing, unfortunately it is not available for the Mac, which is what I am running. Any idea if it will be available for Mac soon? I assume it has something to do with the Mac not having a 64 bit system, or something of that nature. -Peter
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    @pscart said:

    Thanks Dietz. Yes, I would rather just focus on writing music, but I am forced too takes mixing/mastering into my own hands because of budget restrictions. The MIR software looks amazing, unfortunately it is not available for the Mac, which is what I am running. Any idea if it will be available for Mac soon? I assume it has something to do with the Mac not having a 64 bit system, or something of that nature. -Peter
     

    Peter, I would put the thought of running MIR on your Mac out of your head for quite a while. There are many considerations including:

    1. It doesn't exist on OSX yet
    2. Even if it did work on OSX you would probably not be able to run your sequencer at the same time, which defeats the object for you.

    In your shoes, i would pay an engineer to come in for a day and set up a few mixing templates for you. Sure, you'll have to pay (but less that half of what MIR would cost, never kind the machine that you would have to buy), but you would at least be able to get closer to your desires about just mixing.

    DG
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
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    As a mixing-engineer, I'd say DG is spot-on 😊 .... as the MIR project-leader I'd say that Vienna MIR covers new ground, and that I had a very hard time to recreate the effect of this concept without the engine.

    @pscart said:

    Thanks Dietz. Yes, I would rather just focus on writing music, but I am forced too takes mixing/mastering into my own hands because of budget restrictions. The MIR software looks amazing, unfortunately it is not available for the Mac, which is what I am running. Any idea if it will be available for Mac soon? I assume it has something to do with the Mac not having a 64 bit system, or something of that nature. -Peter

    Yes, there are quite a few obstacles when it comes to release MIR for OSX, too. - Right now, quite a few of our users have decided to use BootCamp and Vista/W7, though 😊

    Kind regards,

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • P
    P
    Thanks guys, I appreciate the advice. I have been engineering for quite a while actually. Did a double major of classical composition and studio composition at college. I've even sat in on some KOCH recording sessions, because the Hall at my college in NY was pretty good acoustically. That being said, I have more experience in engineering a rock band. I think I am getting a decent sound, but as I said I was wondering if the whole delay thing would make a difference in the mix. Or should I just stick to the convolution reverb I am using? The core of my dilemma is; how do I represent the players in the acoustic space with what I have at my disposal? DG, as an engineer, would you use a delay effect to simulate the early reflections and how they differ for each choir? Thanks again guys. -Peter
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    @pscart said:

    DG, as an engineer, would you use a delay effect to simulate the early reflections and how they differ for each choir? Thanks again guys. -Peter
     

    Oo no, I'm a terrible engineer. That's why I gave the advice I did. i always "get a man in" to do the dirty work. I'm a firm believer that it is impossible to be an expert on everything, and have no problem in admitting my lack of engineering skills. [;)]

    DG