hi tom, at least good to hear you have it working again ...

in apple keyboards, iMacs and apple displays you can find a wide range of USB hubs - eg. many devices don't work at all if they're plugged into the keyboard ...

i know it doesn't help, but here is another strange story: for certain tasks i have a G4 mirrordoor standing beneath my desk with a generic (powered) hub which is needed because of only 3 USB ports ... while it wortked with 3 or 4 keys under 10.4.8 the same does not work with only 2 keys in 10.4.11 ... and i have absolutely no idea what might cause this behaviour because phisically nothing has changed.

another annoying issue here with the apple display firewire hub - it is impossible to get any firewire disk (even a LaCie) mounted if connected to the display, but i'm considering it hopeless to get that solved by anyone ...

third story (PC related in this case): we have a USB M-Audio keyboard which disconnects every time when a certain neon light is switched on or off (which is connected to a very different circuit btw) ... so who's to blame: the electricity company, the vendor of the lamp or the switch, M-Audio, the cable company? ... i don't know ... i simply don't switch it on or off when working ...

christian

@cm said:

hi tom, at least good to hear you have it working again ...

in apple keyboards, iMacs and apple displays you can find a wide range of USB hubs - eg. many devices don't work at all if they're plugged into the keyboard ...

(edited)

third story (PC related in this case): we have a USB M-Audio keyboard which disconnects every time when a certain neon light is switched on or off (which is connected to a very different circuit btw) ... so who's to blame: the electricity company, the vendor of the lamp or the switch, M-Audio, the cable company? ... i don't know ... i simply don't switch it on or off when working ...

Hi Christian,

Yes it is a good thing I got it work again because I'm in the middle of 2 projects and VSL stuff not working really freaked me out a bit.

In reference to USB hubs, I can understand the nightmare of trying to test all the permutations of hardware on the PC side, but this is one area where Apple make things a bit easier because there is a relatively small number hardware permutations you have to test. The hub on the Apple keyboards you mention are actually stated to run only very low powered devices but other than that could certainly be tested for compatibility by a software vendor. There aren't so many Apple Displays that they can be allowed to slip through the testing protocols.

I get the impression that we are simply dealing with Steinberg's inadequate support for Mac here, and VSL absolutely should take this up with them in a serious way because it is damaging their otherwise impressive image.

Tom

 On my MAC keyboard I have the mouse plugged on the right USB socket and the Vienna key on the left side.

It works very well and to me is far better than the GIGAstudio way of protection I used before VSL.

I haven't had an eLicenser issue since I plugged the dongle in the front USB port on my Mac Pro.  After all the discussion here on the forum, I thought I'd try re-plugging the dongle in the back port on the machine just to see if it makes a difference.  On the back is where the dongle was when I was having all the issues before.  

Sure enough, on the third startup with the dongle in the back port, I got the infamous white box.  It's apparent that there is something in the USB ports on the Mac Pro that is causing the issue.

I understand that one can set themselves up for failure if using a cheep USB hub, but to have failure on the machine's own port, not even the ones on the back of the monitor but on the actual box is unacceptable.

BTW, my iLok is on the back and have never had any issues........

Questions for the VSL Team:

Two major things have disappointed me with VSL and the Mac implementation (not counting the 64-bit thing) since I switched to Mac from PC two years ago.

1.  The GUI interface interaction compared to the PC implementation.  This was the first negative issue I had the day I switched.  I understand having a separate server application on the Mac is the reason for the design but a real inconvenience and work-flow issue compared to the PC implementation.  The fact that VSL just operates (navigates) differently than any other instrument interface on the market when using a sequencer host is troublesome especially if one is not using VSL exclusively.  I understand that using Ensemble was an attempt to rectify this issue along with providing networking capability but for someone who wants to keep everything in their sequencer and only use the VI interface, adds another layer of potential issues, increased screen real estate, and redundancy considering that is the task of a sequence application -- to mix.

2.  The license checking time at startup is different then any other instrument on the market.  The penalty experienced for having larger VSL libraries is unreal.  I know and have adapted basically out of necessity to go have a cup of coffee each time I start up.  If I have to reboot several times through the day, the coffee eventually changes to beer.  The point is, the user should not be penalized at the cost of software copy protection.  It is just not moral that those of us who have invested $20,000+ in a library, should have to pay for a shoddy implementation of copy protection.  After all, we spent the bucks --- we are not pirates!!!

My questions:  

     1.  Does the VSL team plan to fix the VI interface to interact like any other instrument interface when hosted by a sequencer      application.?  Consistency and industry standards are essential (i.e. - not able to use the PLAY interface with VSL - MAJOR issue in both Ensemble and when using VI in the sequencer (Logic, Cubase & Pro Tools).

    2.  Does VSL have plans to adjust the path in how the software security is currently implemented considering all the end-user issues?

I would hope that the numerous work-arounds that have been suggest by the team and have been implemented on this end is only TEMPORARY and not a final solutions to some real concerning issues.  

As a big fan of VSL I would second Chuck's comments. Unfortunately the workflow of using VI in say Logic is like climbing a brick wall - gets easier with practice but the wall's still there!

I have the Vienna dongle plugged in the front USB slot of my mac it is no more or less reliable than when it was plugged in the Mac cinema displays but still occasionally throws up the white rectangle. Also sometimes when re-loading Logic songs that use Ensemble it can loose communication with the VE after receiving the warning the VE server is already running.

Anyway a relaunch of Logic fixes it and it is just an inconvenience but still it would be better if it didn't happen.

Julian

@Chuck Green said:

I thought I'd try re-plugging the dongle in the back port on the machine just to see if it makes a difference.  On the back is where the dongle was when I was having all the issues before.  

most obviously the conclusion is, that indeed there is a difference between the front and the rear USB ports.

i don't have a macPro here (might actually differ by model) to double check in the system information if it is a different USB controller or maybe just an electrical or signaling issue.

btw: how many licenses are on your iLok vs. on your eLicenser? if it is *only* an issue with the timing of the USB controller for the rear ports there might be a software fix possible, though probable suspicion would be the controller is slighly out of the USB specs.

christian

ad 1) please remember the server solution has been introduced to allow accessing seperate memory (outside of the host application) which was (and basically still is) essential for loading a significant amount of data.

there is a bunch of industry standards out there - some ore more open, some proprietary and/or closed ... VST (2, 3), AU, RTAS, MAS, TDM, ReWire, ect. not every vendor has a perfect implementation of the respective specification, some vendors are more responsive than others.

currently i don't want to comment on PLAY at all.

ad 2) the path how protection is currently implemented does also secure your investment very well - however there is nothing which can't be improved and VSL is aware that there _are_ issues (caused by whatever) and taking appropriate steps to de-escalate the problematic incidents.

christian

@cm said:

btw: how many licenses are on your iLok vs. on your eLicenser? if it is *only* an issue with the timing of the USB controller for the rear ports there might be a software fix possible, though probable suspicion would be the controller is slighly out of the USB specs.

christian

Hi Christian,

I have Altiverb and ALL the PLAY Libraries and Ivory on my iLok -- 24.  I've mentioned this before and maybe it's worth taking a serious look at.  When we speak of license count -- if there was a way to consolidate the licenses into a single license in VSL may help the issue, if in fact, the number of licenses per dongle are contributing to the issue.

For example, rather than to license each and every aspect of VSL, which is the easiest to implement and manage, but rather if someone owned for example Cube, then a new license issued that would consolidate into a single license.  Even if there were two licenses, one for standard and one for extended.  The number of licenses would be drastically cut which common sense implies that less scans, quicker loads -- less tasking on the dongle.  

Licenses could be managed in groups which means as the number of library ownership increases by individual, they would qualify for a single group licenses that covers the bulk of what they own thereby decreasing the overall-number of licenses per individual.  Also, something would have to be designed in order to allow individuals to spread library components across multiple computers along with their associated licenses.

Don't have the complete answer here but maybe their is a solution as to how the implementation could be modified.  As far as eLicense versus iLok, it may be that both would have the same issues and that the real issues is the number of licenses.

I'm I making sense here?

@cm said:

d 1) please remember the server solution has been introduced to allow accessing seperate memory (outside of the host application) which was (and basically still is) essential for loading a significant amount of data.

Agree ... my thoughts were once the sequencers on the Mac support 64-bit then the need for a separate server app. would not be required in order to house the large sample count, would the VSL Team modify their GUI instrument interface to respond like the rest of the virtual instruments in the market today?

@cm said:

there is a bunch of industry standards out there - some ore more open, some proprietary and/or closed ... VST (2, 3), AU, RTAS, MAS, TDM, ReWire, ect. not every vendor has a perfect implementation of the respective specification, some vendors are more responsive than others.

currently i don't want to comment on PLAY at all.

Understand.....  From an end-user point of view and with the advent of larger and larger single computers, the industry (who ever that is) would benefit I believe from a set of standards that would force design standards in order to gain a peaceful co-existance of the various virtual instruments available in the market.  The current solution when two different instrument do not co-exist peacefully is to place them on separate computers that are networked to the main sequencer.  With larger machines capable of handing larger instrument counts, peaceful coexistence becomes more significant and important.

One may say that we are speaking of a perfect world with our head in the clouds, but remember the engineering community over time established SAE, and don't forget even in the computer industry ASCII, etc.  So I believe in time, there is hope that this industry will evolve.

@cm said:

there is nothing which can't be improved and VSL is aware that there _are_ issues (caused by whatever) and taking appropriate steps to de-escalate the problematic incidents.

It's very encouraging to read this - thanks cm! This has been a long and heated debate and hopefully there are solutions somewhere ahead.......

@STUDIO ROST said:

I never had any trouble with my ILok, which runs various software! With all the other dongles I´ve tried - problems.. I think it´s very strange that paying customers should suffer when companies like VSL and SSL starts really complicated dongle procedures with hardly no support due to their fear of losing money to piracy. If you can´t support your paying customers, then they will turn PIRATE, simple math 😊 So, I think they are making a big mistake here. I´m considering discontinuing the use of Vienna, because the company seem cheap-ass towards customers (poor support, rotten deals, pretty obvious they just want to make money) I.M.H.O Markus, Stockholm, Sweden

What problems are you having? Please provide some system specs so that we can try to help you.

DG

If we get into a vote, I've had ZERO synchro soft issues...yet, have had iLok issues with both the iLok 1 and now 2. I had to break out diag tools to diagnose and fix my own ilok2 issue...which it turns out affects every install of Win7 that is not actively on a network. 2 months after I reported in detail the problem and fix, I got a note today that they're writing up a knowledge base article. 

Anyway...i bought an iLok 1 for a single app--caused config issues in XP years ago...bought a 2 for a second app and while I ultimately fixed it for them, it caused the software I bought to not actually work for the first week or so of ownership. Time that should've been spent mixing was spent diagnosing and resolving the issue. Not to mention the time it takes Waves vintage series to open. Yank the iLok while you wait--it'll barf...that's what its waiting on. 

Two strikes. Ask me if I'm ever going to buy anything else that goes on an iLok. I vote hells no. 

well, seems easy - iLok is good on Mac and erratic on Windows, syncrosoft good on Windows and erratic on Mac. for me as well - zero problems with iLok ( but also with Yellowtools Wibu or Logic Key) - lots and never ending headaches with syncrosoft.

i mean, one buys samples for thousands of euros ( high priced product -and high quality product) and then needs to get a piece of plastic that is poorly manufactured, feels cheap and fragile ( the drivers on mac are exactly that as well) to copy protect it. if you run into problems they tell you to connect the dongle to a USB-port on the computer and not to a hub - how realistic is that as a solution? maybe they should buy Apple and other manufactures first so they can command that computers have at least 16 USB-ports for all the dongles, USB interfaces, keyboards, mices, etc. 

Alone this support answer it outrages - to me it is an expression that they are not that interested in problems their users have with this dongle. 

Best

I don't know whether anybody else has had this annoying problem, but when the VSL key is not at the back of my computer (often), I cannot start Sibelius properly. It crashes time after time as VE is trying to verify the missing key, and it must be a fault with the VSL software for it doesn't matter how many times one presses 'Abort', the program still crashes. Why can't VE just accept the 'Abort' command and not insist trying to load on?!

@Errikos said:

....when the VSL key is not at the back of my computer (often), I cannot start Sibelius properly.

I use Logic, not Sibelius, but it seems to me that you have an Autoload song (or whatever it's called in Sibelius) that contains an instance of some VSL software (VE?).

My suggestion would be to simplify your defaults so that Sibelius opens without having to look for any VSL software. I don't think you can blame this on VSL - it's your Sibelius that's asking for key because of what you have loaded - well that's my guess at least.

@steff3 said:

iLok is good on Mac and erratic on Windows, syncrosoft good on Windows and erratic on Mac

Funny - I've never had any problems with either.

 I use Syncrosoft and iLok on PC's and also, have never had any problems with either. They just both always work every day.