Just so I understand this right, are these long delays happening when an instrument is loaded into a session, or every time Logic starts up with big Vienna instruments installed?

Obviously, loading any big instrument is going to take some time to load the samples, but shouldn't make it take much longer to start the app itself.  How do people know that the delays are caused by the dongle and aren't just the time required to load the samples?

Thanks.

Hi Mike,

When one starts Vienna Instruments for the first time of a session, the application requires time to examine the licenses.  This action takes a minute or so then followed by loading the instrument samples.  The more libraries you have configured in the Directory Manager, the longer the initial exam takes.

One approach to minimize that is to load only the instruments in the Directory Manager that you are using for a particular template.  I have all the libraries of VI but never use everything available, so I pick and choose those instruments that I will be using in a given template and save them as a preset in the Directory Manager.  Also note that this process only takes place during the initial load when the machine is first started or after a reboot.

When I was having problems with eLicense, a blank white box would appear on the screen.  Sometimes the box wouldn't be blank but would have an Syncrosoft error message on it requiring a reboot.  I have NOT seen this since I've loaded Snow Leopard, and the latest release of eLicense and VE-PRO.  I feel pretty confident that the issues has been fixed through some software modification between the three apps stated.  No hardware changes have taken place on my end.

One other work-flow approach that I find beneficial is to use the metafile function in VE-PRO.  Because I have only a single machine and Logic allows only 16 channels per instance, I use multiple instances of VE-PRO (ie. winds, strings, perc, keys, etc.).  Once my template is complete, I save a metafile that keeps track of the VE-PRO configs along with their screen positions.  Very nice when using multiple monitors.

In the beginning of my day, I click on a metafile (which I've created an alias and place on my desktop) and the loading process begins.  The licenses are checked, the VE-PRO instances are loaded along with their samples.  This takes approx. 10 minutes for the entire orchestra and choir.  While this is taking place, I have my first cup of coffee and read my emails, check for updates on the web, etc.  Once everything is loaded, I bring up Logic, load my sequence (which takes about 30 seconds) and I'm up and running.

Want to use the same template in a different sequence with the same template, just load a new sequence leaving VE-PRO up.  Switching to a new sequence is about a 30 second task.  The instruments are already loaded and ready to go.

I've been playing around with different approaches to optimize my workflow.  This approach works the best for me.

Hope this helps.

I might add Mike that since the latest release of the three software apps (VE-PRO, Snow Leopard, and eLicense), I go ALL DAY without a reboot which means my loaded process is only executed once.  MAJOR improvement compared to the earlier releases.

The best part, No freezing of tracks and no purging of samples.  Just compose.  LOVE IT!!!!

Thanks for the info.

Your welcome Mike.  I must admit that over the past couple of years, I've been real critical of VSL implementation on the Mac.  While still on the PC, I invested $20,000 + in the VSL library along with switching to the Mac.  Over the past couple of years, I was really beginning to question my directional decision considering all the issues that I was experiencing. 

After the initial dust storm and it became apparent that the issues that us Mac users were having was not caused by a single entity, the only thing that one could do (other that purchasing another PC) was wait until all the parties got their ducks in line and made adjustments to their software so that the VSL library would run to it's potential.

Looking back a couple of years later, and if I had to point a finger at anyone, I would have to say that Apple dropped the ball and promised more that what was delivered -- focused on their own applications without regard to any 3rd party development.  From a music creation perspective, the operating system and sequencing software did not live up to what users on the PC side expected and realized out of a 64-bit machine.  Coming from a Sonar environment and understanding it's 64-bit capabilities, the Mac and Logic fell way short.

The VSL team has stepped up to the challenge and provided a 64-bit working environment bridging the gap between the Apple and the PC 64-bit environment even though Logic, Cubase, Pro-Tools still does not support a 64-bit hosting environment.  The VSL Team as been pressing the envelope on this one and the way I see it, even with all the controversy that has surrounded the Intel Mac evolution to 64-bit and the amount of re-coding required to support, has been light-years ahead of anyone else in the business.  Now with the eLicense issue resolved, working with the VSL instruments and effects on an Intel Mac is a real joy.

I would recommend this library and suite of tools to anyone on the Intel Mac environment.  The PC side has always been strong.

Maybe people haven't fully realized that the problem is not Syncrosoft or VSL, it is the combination of both that causes problems. Judging by the numbers of posts on this forum, I think VSL cannot deny that there is a problem, even if it is a small group (Mac). It is their job to find out what combination of hardware or other factors causes problems with their $10k+ product.

First of all, I don't have much confidence in the Syncrosoft product based on problems in the past vs zero problems with the iLok. Having it run by Steinberg now doesn't make that better, again based on my personal experience with Steinberg and their track record for Apple products (anybody remembers Cubase 1 for OSX, a pathetic attempt to port the PC version over to Mac). At least they are updating and improving their eLicencing.

But honestly I don't have any issues with any other the licenses on the Syncrosoft key, once authorized they are working and you don't even noticed that it is there, just like the iLok. But now put the VSL products in the picture - there you have the problems.

Any product you buy and install, you go through an authorization process of some kind, to prove that you purchased the product and you are the legitimate owner. Some authorization processes are better than others, meaning less hustle for the consumer to jump through all kinds of hoops. But I understand that the developers have to protect their investment, ok fine. But what VSL is doing is taking it too far. It re-checks the product every time lit aunches after a re-boot, resulting in this down-time until the process is finished. Are there any other companies that are that paranoid? VSL requires that you prove that you are not a thief after each reboot of the machine. "Yes, I told you already two hours ago that I'm authorized to use that &^%&^% piccolo flute sample, now get out of the way and let me use the stuff what I paid you $10k+ for." Unfreakingbelievable.

And please I don't want to hear any excuses or workarounds. Yes, in a perfect world, you would only start the computer once in the morning, and yes I could use the time to get a coffee. And yes, I could come up with a solution to only check the instruments that I use to cut down the authorization time. Fact is, this is not an open source project, this is a very expensive product that should live up to it's proclaimed standard, not only in sound quality but also in usability.

I use the latest eLicense version on Snow Leopard and I'm still getting the same problems that I had under Leopard. That nice BLANK alert window that something went wrong. Did I mention that that alert window popped up behind other windows so I don't find out after 10 munites and getting suspicious. (note to Developer, the Mac has a feature called "bouncing dock icon" that gets your attention, or how about let the crashed app send me a twitter note that it needs my attention, or anything)
In my opinion (cm, just to let you know, I'm not a programmer) the VSL authorization process causes the crash (Problem 1), but now the buggy eLicense software (Problem 2), draws an empty window on the screen that can not be removed  nor can it be force quit, You have to restart your machine, reloading all the other stuff what I had in Memory. It seems that the Syncrosoft engineers are violating basic OSX programming rules the same way VSL is doing that with the VI plugin, that doesn't follow Apple GUI Guidelines.

Conclusion:
1) VSL, get rid of that paranoid re-authorization process
2) Syncrosoft, check with VSL to make your product fully compatible with their paranoid re-authorization process

And BTW, just because a problem doesn't happen all the time, doesn't mean that it's not there

@Edgar Rothermich said:

Maybe people haven't fully realized that the problem is not Syncrosoft or VSL, it is the combination of both that causes problems.

Hi Edgar,

Just curious, what sequencer are you using?  The reason I asked is that I had the blank white box appear more often using Cubase than Logic.  I've suspected in the past a compatibility issue between Cubase, and elicense in VSL.  Lately I've been using Logic with no issues.  I have both configured with the same metafile so I can switch between sequencers with the same library loaded.  I haven't notice issues lately although I've only been using Logic and do not have my Cubase dongle plugged in either.  The Cubase guys are not currently supporting Cubase in Snow Leopard.  New update is expected mid December.  

@Chuck Green said:

Hi Edgar,

Just curious, what sequencer are you using? 

I'm using Logic 9 on an 8-core MacPro. Occasional VSL verification error and the persistent white box happens in Snow Leopard as it did in  Leopard.

I forgot to mention in the previous post. I don't think the host has anything to do with it. After a while I got sick and tired of those awful long (first) Logic projects boot, that have VI in it, just to find out that the eLincense crapped out again. So before I fired up Logic, I launched the VI standalone app just to go through the eLicense verification. And only if that came up properly (which didn't all the time), then I started Logic.

There is no apparent reason why the verification process failed. It boots up every day for a couple of weeks and then the next day trouble again, where nothing has changed, Maybe solar flares, position of the moon, jet streams - who knows.

Hi Edgar, Hi Chuck:

Am I right in thinking that Chuck is using VE Pro, whereas Edgar is using plain old VI/VE?

I wish we didn't have to bash eLicenser and VSL - but, in my extensive experience of configuring machines and many different softwares, VI/VE is the one current piece of software that consistently has issues due to its copy protection. Seriously, I can't think of any others where this is still a problem.

Sigh...

Pants.

Just for the record, I am running Logic 9.0.2 under OS 10.5.8 on an 8-core Mac Pro. I use Vienna Instruments plus Vienna Ensemble.

My VSL key is plugged into a USB slot on the front of my Mac Pro.

I do not have ANY problems with VI or VE booting, or "white boxes" or any of the problems mentioned here. I believe that a full-blown bug would affect most if not all VSL users. I suspect that problems may be caused by unique combinations of software on peoples' systems, using the VSL key on a USB hub, not having all current Apple Pro-App updates installed, etc etc etc.

I'm not trying to diminish the problems and frustrations that folks here may be having - just saying that there may be varied issues going on. 

Regards - Colin

@musos said:

My VSL key is plugged into a USB slot on the front of my Mac Pro.

Hi Edgar & Colin,

Colin, you may be on to something here.  Yes, when I was having all the problems just as Edgar is now experiencing, my VSL key was plugged into the back of my machine.  A few weeks ago, I noticed that my fans were running extremely fast, like it was going to take off or something.  Apple tech advised me to unplug everything from the machine and let it set for 30 minutes.

I unplugged the dongles, monitors, power, firewire, the works then replugged everything back in only this time, I placed my VSL dongle in the front port.  To be honest, I have not seen any issues like Edgar is seeing since the dongle shuffle and I contributed the fix to recent software updates.  Just maybe it had nothing to do with software but the resetting of the hardware/software on the Mac by unplugging everything as recommended by the Apple Tech.

Edgar, it may very well be worth trying what I did to see if it does improve on your end.  I know how frustrated you are because, like you, I was also launching the stand-alone version of VI before launching Logic just to ensure that things were going to work correctly.  As you stated, launching the stand-lone version did for me, display the box with an error message --- launching Logic first displays the white blank box behind the Logic window letting one think that everything was ok.  Totally understand....

To save additional frustration and also based on the fact that I've been reading on other forums (and I believe that it was also stated on this forum) that Apple's implementation of USB is not as stable as it could be, I would try unplugging everything, let it set for 30 minutes, re-plug and be sure to have your VSL dongle in the front USB port.  Give it a try and see if you realize improved stability.  At this point you have nothing to loose.....

Let me know if you should decide to try if it helps.

Thanks for all the useful tips. However, I still believe it is the vendor's responsibility at some point to step up and acknowledge the problem. There are too many reports of the same problem although just a minority in the whole picture. Nevertheless, if customers spend that much money on a product then there is some kind of obligation from the vendor.

In an ideal world you might get a stable situation if you plug the one dongle in the front and yes there are issues with the USB ports on Macs. However more and more user have to use multiple dongles Again it is the vendors responsibility to find out specific hardware limitations, either before they release a product or after reports come in from the user. There is a thing called "System Requirement". If the excessive VSL authentication process sucks up more than 500mA of current through the USB port and causes the crash then maybe a note in the System Requirement is needed. "VSL authentication requires USB port to be hooked up to a nuclear power plant".

If VSL continues to ignore to investigate/fix the problems then I may return the favor and ignore VSL in my next purchase decision. A previous post made it pretty clear. If someone want to spend thousands of dollars on a product and reads about those unresolved problems then he may look somewhere else. Simple as that.

@Edgar Rothermich said:

There is a thing called "System Requirement". If the excessive VSL authentication process sucks up more than 500mA of current through the USB port and causes the crash

ahead: an authentication process doesn't use current - it is always a device, the key is using just a few mA ...

a USB device must use less than 100 mA (USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 low power) or if authorized by the operating system up to 500 mA (USB 2.0 high power) per USB port.

that's the reason why many GSM-modems and harddisks come with adapters for 2 USB ports.

however a badly designed device on the bus can reduce voltage on the bus so causing other devices not working properly.

additionally you might be interested to hear that USB has specified a minimum plugin-cycle of 500 (USB 3.0 will increase this to 1.500, high quality connectors for USB 2.0 up to 5.000) and i have already a USB port on a computer which is definately electrically broken and does no longer provide a reliable connection.

i don't understand how VSL could fix a USB problem on anyones computerc or smell what 3rd party device driver in the setup is screwing up the protocol ...

christian

@cm said:

i don't understand how VSL could fix a USB problem on anyones computerc or smell what 3rd party device driver in the setup is screwing up the protocol ...

There is a difference between a broken device and a device that doesn't meet specific requirements for proper operation.

True, I could have a broken USB hub or port on my system, even a "half broken" device with intermittent problems. Strange thing is, that this device seems to be broken only under the operation with VI using the eLicense dongle. And even stranger, a fair amount of other user seem to have the same "broken" device judging by the posts on this forum. If that is true then I admit VSL cannot do anything about it. - Never mind.

However, if this whole scenario is based on system requirements, too much peak current during the authorization or whatever (hey, I'm not an electric engineer either), then the ball is definitely in the VSL corner to look into that.

If VSL thinks that there might be an issue and not just a bunch of whiny Mac users with broken USB connections then maybe VSL could use their next mailing list not just to announce more shiny new products (that also use the eLicense key, urggh) but attach a brief survey for the user with that USB problem to list their hardware/software setup and specify what USB and in what slot they are using, etc. Maybe you would find out some correlation, maybe 80% use the same brand of USB hub. Then the next VI update has a note in the System Requirements, warning users of the use of that specific USB hub, or use the eLicense key only on the front USB slot only Monday-Fridays, weekends is ok for use in either slots - you never know.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the a**, just want that problem to be solved and I would guess a few other users would too.

Thanks

This is a difficult problem to resolve, but Edgar does have a good suggestion about ways to try to quantify the issue, so that more of us can determine what are safe updates to do, whether we're better off with or without a hub, etc.

As someone who has developed software and firmware for almost thirty years and been in several standards committees and cross-industry partnerships, I have deep sympathy for the dilemma that VSL faces in allocating resources for licenser issues vs. internal development.

I got bitten, for the second time this year, on a proposed release date for software, by an unexpected update by Apple (this past summer, it was simultaneous updates by Apple and Sun), that broke certain aspects of long-working features. Do you think our clients care that it isn't "our fault" and that we have no direct visibility on the problem or any way to get customers to back out a Java update (not possible on the Mac, thanks to Apple's philosophy)? This ties up resources, which is hard with a small development team (or, in my case, individual). So it is always a balancing act.

Users do not expect vendors to "pass the buck". So it is not surprising that there is some extreme anger being expressed here. My own anger, however, is directed at Steinberg. Yet I do accept that VSL cannot and should not be cavalier -- nor do I think they are behaving that way, by any means. Rather, I think Edgar himself has pointed out that there are so many variables, that it would be difficult for any vendor to test every possible combination of what clients may have.

So this brings us back to the licensing choice itself. I personally feel that VSL should investigate abandoning eLicenser for something else -- especially as many of us now have large libraries and thus this approach to license verification is going to be a performance hit at some level, even in the best of circumstances. But as I have a very positive experience with another approach, I am more confident that eLicneser needn't necessarily be the only safe and viable choice for VSL to protect their property.

B.F.D. 2.0 introduced a new license protection scheme by fxpansion, that is easy, safe, and non-invasive at run-time. I have no idea what they did, or even if they licensed it from someone else, but it seems to work for them, and though they don't have as many libraries as VSL does, their libraries are as big and deep as VSL's, so the stakes are about as high regarding piracy protection.

Perhaps VSL could contact fxpansion (who are not competitive with VSL) and find out what the options might be?

But who am I to prioritize this for them? I am merely suggesting it. There seem to be workarounds for almost everyone's problems with eLicenser, even if it can be a PITA at times. I'd rather have the Choir Library ready, personally. Choices do have to be made. If we want VSL to prioritize responsibility for eLicneser problems, we suffer in other ways. Think about it.

Software engineers have a tendency to be too abstract and not grounded in the real world implications of their work (this is a big reason why I left the computer industry for the audio industry eleven years ago). I wish something could be done about that, but it is unlikely to change. I consider it inexcusable, when a license-oriented vendor such as PACE/iLok or eLicenser, doesn't calculate the harm to millions of end users of products for which they only themselves have an abstract connection. It's a disconnect, wherein the license vendor doesn't have sufficient incentive to make sure everything works.

License protection, for better or worse, has to be less punitive regarding a user's hardware/software upgrade cycle and budgeting choices for when to get a new computer, than other software and hardware. This is probably why PACE/iLok chose the web browser as their licensing interface, to better decouple themselves from system requirements (although I am unable to use their website on certain popular and robust browsers on the Mac, and let them know, to which they replied that I should use Safari instead, even though that is a sluggish and relatively unsafe browser overall).

My problems have just escalated to having all my licenses disappear.

elicenser is a huge problem for VSL and really needs to be addressed swiftly to restore confidence in the company.

Tom

Sort of off topic, perhaps, but...

My syncrosoft dongle just died.  It shows up in the eLicenser Control Center as a "Broken USB-eLicenser".  This is one I got with Cubase.  So I think Steinberg will replace it. But how do I transfer my VSL licenses to the new dongle when I get it?

And also... I was in the middle of evaluating VE Pro.  Can I get a new trial license so I can complete that evaluation?  (I doubt I'll get this all sorted before the current trial expires.)

Thanks!

 counterquestion (since you didn't mention this also in your email to support):

- have you rebooted before updating the software?

- did you repair permissions on your system volume afterwards?

christian