@Chuck Green said:

Hi Civilization 3,

Was viewing the comments on this post.  I run an 8-core Mac and have experienced many issues having to reboot due to Syncrosoft issues.  I should say that I assume their Syncrosoft issues because when everything locks up, there is a square image on my screen under the sequencer window...sometimes it just a white square other times it has Syncrosoft Error messages on it.  I don't know if it is because I'm up again memory or not.  I kinda thought that may be the case.

One question...  I use Logic, Pro Tools and Cubase 5.  When using Logic or Pro Tools LE, the fans on my Mac run at a low, quiet pace.  When I start Cubase, a few seconds later, the fans go into high gear.  It's like an airplane taking off.  Then awhile later they will back down for a minute or so, then start back up again.

Do you experience this?

I spoke with Cubase support and they advised that Cubase 5 is not support for 8-core Intels yet.  That seems strange to me but they said that I would have to wait for the next (post snow leopard) release before Cubase is supported on the 8-core Macs.

Cubase isn't optimal as far as this machine, it's true. I have bought Logic in fact. But, it's only noticeable for me as far as, I think my latency should be significantly better with vstis. With VE only it's not so much a problem, but a couple instances of Kontakt and BFD2 - plugins the normal way - and it's tough to get the action I require.

The syncrosoft problem I was having was Cubase wasn't seeing the key, and I would have to log out and back in sometimes. With a goodly amt of inserts in VE, it does take a while for a project to load. Activating a project when another project is open, and one of them uses VE (let alone 2) and Kontakt multiple instances, that can be a problem, Cubase trying to load both at the same time it seems like. So, I quit Cubase in these situations now. The worse troubles I'm seeing here, I don't experience really.

@EwaldK said:

Syncrosoft has been a disaster over here too (I use a Mac), same problems as described by previous users. Been using iLok since ca 2000 when I bought Nuendo [...]

For the sake of completeness: Nuendo uses a Syncrosoft/eLicenser key since Day One.

I'm sorry to say so, but you are wrong on this one. After version1 Nuendo I have never upgraded or worked with Nuendo (so I don't know what kind of licenser they have used since then) but that 1.x release was definitely using an iLok.

I'm glad that this post gets so much response. Just hope that VSL at least acknowledge that there is an issue. If they decide that this is just an problem for a couple of Mac users (they are always a pain in the ^%$ anyway) and then only the Logic guys (even more pain in the ^%$), that's ok. But they have to keep in mind that the more a user spends on VLS products the more problems he has and if VSL decides to ignore them then they are cutting out their most valuable ($$$) customers. These are the ones that have the money to buy the expensive Imperial, MIR, or FX Suite products.

It was mentioned before that spending $10k+ and then get punished for it on top of it with all that copy protection stuff doesn't make for a good customer relationship. I would love to buy more VSL products in the future  but at these hidden costs it is just not worth it. There are other good piano plugins, there are other good room simulations and other FX Suites, not to mentioned Orchestra Library and if VSL is just bringing out new shiny products without cleaning up the mess behind it then they could end up sitting on their products without finding anybody (in the Mac community at least) that would buy it.

Just to enforce the seriousness of the problem again.
It was mentioned that you have to wait only once for the long verification process when you first boot up your system. Just that thought alone is already troublesome. To sit through a long installation/registration process once when you freashly install your new product is ok. But why do I have do proof every day that I'm not a thief? Even "once" a day is not really true in the real world where a computer has more stuff running than just VSL. There is the system, there is Logic, there is maybe the EuCon protocol and tons of other stuff could make a system very vulnerable.
If Logic crashes while you reaching its Memory limit, the Euphonix EuCon protocol gets angry and quits after the third time, now the system gets really unstable, because the VSL server could also run close to 3.5GB VM. And lets face it the VSL server is not as smart as the Kontakt server that keeps the instrument in RAM and is not locked to Logic's "well being". So running your system to the max which is more the standard if you are using it in a professional way and not just cutting some loops in the Garage at the weekend then you can end up having to reboot your system more than once a day, and you know what that means ... "Nooooo, you don't have to verify every %$#% sample again ... no I didn't steal anything since the last three hours ... I was busy waiting to load all the samples into the VI plugin that just crashed ... ^%$^%$"

Did I mention that I'm not a big fan of the Syncrosoft solution, just in case that didn't come across.

@EwaldK said:

Syncrosoft has been a disaster over here too (I use a Mac), same problems as described by previous users. Been using iLok since ca 2000 when I bought Nuendo [...]

For the sake of completeness: Nuendo uses a Syncrosoft/eLicenser key since Day One.

I'm sorry to say so, but you are wrong on this one. After version1 Nuendo I have never upgraded or worked with Nuendo (so I don't know what kind of licenser they have used since then) but that 1.x release was definitely using an iLok.

both ilok and syncrosoft work on my machine. but i would not support ilok. they want to charge the end customer to for a warranty and essentially tax them for being able to use the software they use. this is grotesque! at the moment it looks like ilok does not work on mac os x 10.6 - their support team is on vacation. this is no way to run this business!

a dongle manufacturer MUST guarantee that the end user can use the product they bought. everything else would advertise piracy. legitimate users should not be compromised!

Hi:

From the excessive license scanning time at start up (which can happen regularly - just as Edgar notes) to the mysterious white boxes that appear when a Syncrosoft error occurs - even though it worked just a moment ago and will work again when you restart, move the dongle to another port and sacrifice a virgin goat to the God of Copy Protection, just to continue working - Syncrosoft has plagued many Mac/Logic/VI installations that I know of.

On an interesting note, I see that Steinberg have released a new LCC (or eLCC as it is now...). Whether this will upgrade the performance of the underlying software too, I pray this will be the case.

Has anyone any experience with this new version yet? I'm not with my system at the moment, so I can't try it myself...

Best wishes,

Pants.

Hi:

Well, what do you know - I just set up a brand new Mac, with VI/VE 2.0.4017, eLicenser 6.0.1.8, Mac OS X 10.6.1 and loaded up a Vienna Instrument no problem.

I then quit VI and launched VE and got the mysterious white square of death.

Not impressed. :-(

Pants.

Hi Pants,

I couldn´t find any registrations under your forum name - which instruments are you using, which soundcard are you working with? I´m working on 10.6.1 all the time, no problems here at all.

Best,

Paul

In my opinion, there are problems or not in both worlds. Syncosoft and Ilok. Since now and i work with both. personalty i prefer the syncrosoft more than the i lok. A Member of my Band got very bad expirience with his i look. The site suddenly haven´t known his i lok. So he had to buy a new one. And the very bad thing on that the licence was gone even though he can proof that he have a document. Nobody was intristed in. I think this is a very bad service!

 welcome ruben, and thanks for continuing eLicenser bashing ...

obviously you're an OS X programmer and have analyzed the eLicenser application carefully before you formed your judgement.

as much obviously you ignored that there has been a severe and reproducable problem with USB on OS X 10.5.6 which possibly is covered by now or possibly not from the operating system side.

OS X is a UNIX-like operating system and very sensitive on permission issues, especially after installation of software and updates, so before you're crying *doesn't work* take the time and check permissions on the system volume.

also you should never install something which affects running processes but better reboot before (or at least restart the related processes - as you had to do on each kind of UNIX system)

last but not least avoid using cheap USB hubs and take care your attached devices do not consume too much power from the USB busses.

all this are basic tasks could prevent software from running properly.

christian

For what it's worth Ruben,

I own a Mac-Pro 8-core and have had issues in the past with the eLicenser hanging up the loads but since the latest release of VE-PRO and the eLicenser update, it's been smooth sailing.

I have had NO ISSUES running Logic and VE-PRO (1 machine, 6 instances of VE-PRO 64bit, Logic 9, and Snow Leopard).

VERY IMPRESSED!!!

By the way, I also have iLock on the machine.

Just so I understand this right, are these long delays happening when an instrument is loaded into a session, or every time Logic starts up with big Vienna instruments installed?

Obviously, loading any big instrument is going to take some time to load the samples, but shouldn't make it take much longer to start the app itself.  How do people know that the delays are caused by the dongle and aren't just the time required to load the samples?

Thanks.

Hi Mike,

When one starts Vienna Instruments for the first time of a session, the application requires time to examine the licenses.  This action takes a minute or so then followed by loading the instrument samples.  The more libraries you have configured in the Directory Manager, the longer the initial exam takes.

One approach to minimize that is to load only the instruments in the Directory Manager that you are using for a particular template.  I have all the libraries of VI but never use everything available, so I pick and choose those instruments that I will be using in a given template and save them as a preset in the Directory Manager.  Also note that this process only takes place during the initial load when the machine is first started or after a reboot.

When I was having problems with eLicense, a blank white box would appear on the screen.  Sometimes the box wouldn't be blank but would have an Syncrosoft error message on it requiring a reboot.  I have NOT seen this since I've loaded Snow Leopard, and the latest release of eLicense and VE-PRO.  I feel pretty confident that the issues has been fixed through some software modification between the three apps stated.  No hardware changes have taken place on my end.

One other work-flow approach that I find beneficial is to use the metafile function in VE-PRO.  Because I have only a single machine and Logic allows only 16 channels per instance, I use multiple instances of VE-PRO (ie. winds, strings, perc, keys, etc.).  Once my template is complete, I save a metafile that keeps track of the VE-PRO configs along with their screen positions.  Very nice when using multiple monitors.

In the beginning of my day, I click on a metafile (which I've created an alias and place on my desktop) and the loading process begins.  The licenses are checked, the VE-PRO instances are loaded along with their samples.  This takes approx. 10 minutes for the entire orchestra and choir.  While this is taking place, I have my first cup of coffee and read my emails, check for updates on the web, etc.  Once everything is loaded, I bring up Logic, load my sequence (which takes about 30 seconds) and I'm up and running.

Want to use the same template in a different sequence with the same template, just load a new sequence leaving VE-PRO up.  Switching to a new sequence is about a 30 second task.  The instruments are already loaded and ready to go.

I've been playing around with different approaches to optimize my workflow.  This approach works the best for me.

Hope this helps.

I might add Mike that since the latest release of the three software apps (VE-PRO, Snow Leopard, and eLicense), I go ALL DAY without a reboot which means my loaded process is only executed once.  MAJOR improvement compared to the earlier releases.

The best part, No freezing of tracks and no purging of samples.  Just compose.  LOVE IT!!!!

Thanks for the info.

Your welcome Mike.  I must admit that over the past couple of years, I've been real critical of VSL implementation on the Mac.  While still on the PC, I invested $20,000 + in the VSL library along with switching to the Mac.  Over the past couple of years, I was really beginning to question my directional decision considering all the issues that I was experiencing. 

After the initial dust storm and it became apparent that the issues that us Mac users were having was not caused by a single entity, the only thing that one could do (other that purchasing another PC) was wait until all the parties got their ducks in line and made adjustments to their software so that the VSL library would run to it's potential.

Looking back a couple of years later, and if I had to point a finger at anyone, I would have to say that Apple dropped the ball and promised more that what was delivered -- focused on their own applications without regard to any 3rd party development.  From a music creation perspective, the operating system and sequencing software did not live up to what users on the PC side expected and realized out of a 64-bit machine.  Coming from a Sonar environment and understanding it's 64-bit capabilities, the Mac and Logic fell way short.

The VSL team has stepped up to the challenge and provided a 64-bit working environment bridging the gap between the Apple and the PC 64-bit environment even though Logic, Cubase, Pro-Tools still does not support a 64-bit hosting environment.  The VSL Team as been pressing the envelope on this one and the way I see it, even with all the controversy that has surrounded the Intel Mac evolution to 64-bit and the amount of re-coding required to support, has been light-years ahead of anyone else in the business.  Now with the eLicense issue resolved, working with the VSL instruments and effects on an Intel Mac is a real joy.

I would recommend this library and suite of tools to anyone on the Intel Mac environment.  The PC side has always been strong.

Maybe people haven't fully realized that the problem is not Syncrosoft or VSL, it is the combination of both that causes problems. Judging by the numbers of posts on this forum, I think VSL cannot deny that there is a problem, even if it is a small group (Mac). It is their job to find out what combination of hardware or other factors causes problems with their $10k+ product.

First of all, I don't have much confidence in the Syncrosoft product based on problems in the past vs zero problems with the iLok. Having it run by Steinberg now doesn't make that better, again based on my personal experience with Steinberg and their track record for Apple products (anybody remembers Cubase 1 for OSX, a pathetic attempt to port the PC version over to Mac). At least they are updating and improving their eLicencing.

But honestly I don't have any issues with any other the licenses on the Syncrosoft key, once authorized they are working and you don't even noticed that it is there, just like the iLok. But now put the VSL products in the picture - there you have the problems.

Any product you buy and install, you go through an authorization process of some kind, to prove that you purchased the product and you are the legitimate owner. Some authorization processes are better than others, meaning less hustle for the consumer to jump through all kinds of hoops. But I understand that the developers have to protect their investment, ok fine. But what VSL is doing is taking it too far. It re-checks the product every time lit aunches after a re-boot, resulting in this down-time until the process is finished. Are there any other companies that are that paranoid? VSL requires that you prove that you are not a thief after each reboot of the machine. "Yes, I told you already two hours ago that I'm authorized to use that &^%&^% piccolo flute sample, now get out of the way and let me use the stuff what I paid you $10k+ for." Unfreakingbelievable.

And please I don't want to hear any excuses or workarounds. Yes, in a perfect world, you would only start the computer once in the morning, and yes I could use the time to get a coffee. And yes, I could come up with a solution to only check the instruments that I use to cut down the authorization time. Fact is, this is not an open source project, this is a very expensive product that should live up to it's proclaimed standard, not only in sound quality but also in usability.

I use the latest eLicense version on Snow Leopard and I'm still getting the same problems that I had under Leopard. That nice BLANK alert window that something went wrong. Did I mention that that alert window popped up behind other windows so I don't find out after 10 munites and getting suspicious. (note to Developer, the Mac has a feature called "bouncing dock icon" that gets your attention, or how about let the crashed app send me a twitter note that it needs my attention, or anything)
In my opinion (cm, just to let you know, I'm not a programmer) the VSL authorization process causes the crash (Problem 1), but now the buggy eLicense software (Problem 2), draws an empty window on the screen that can not be removed  nor can it be force quit, You have to restart your machine, reloading all the other stuff what I had in Memory. It seems that the Syncrosoft engineers are violating basic OSX programming rules the same way VSL is doing that with the VI plugin, that doesn't follow Apple GUI Guidelines.

Conclusion:
1) VSL, get rid of that paranoid re-authorization process
2) Syncrosoft, check with VSL to make your product fully compatible with their paranoid re-authorization process

And BTW, just because a problem doesn't happen all the time, doesn't mean that it's not there

@Edgar Rothermich said:

Maybe people haven't fully realized that the problem is not Syncrosoft or VSL, it is the combination of both that causes problems.

Hi Edgar,

Just curious, what sequencer are you using?  The reason I asked is that I had the blank white box appear more often using Cubase than Logic.  I've suspected in the past a compatibility issue between Cubase, and elicense in VSL.  Lately I've been using Logic with no issues.  I have both configured with the same metafile so I can switch between sequencers with the same library loaded.  I haven't notice issues lately although I've only been using Logic and do not have my Cubase dongle plugged in either.  The Cubase guys are not currently supporting Cubase in Snow Leopard.  New update is expected mid December.  

@Chuck Green said:

Hi Edgar,

Just curious, what sequencer are you using? 

I'm using Logic 9 on an 8-core MacPro. Occasional VSL verification error and the persistent white box happens in Snow Leopard as it did in  Leopard.

I forgot to mention in the previous post. I don't think the host has anything to do with it. After a while I got sick and tired of those awful long (first) Logic projects boot, that have VI in it, just to find out that the eLincense crapped out again. So before I fired up Logic, I launched the VI standalone app just to go through the eLicense verification. And only if that came up properly (which didn't all the time), then I started Logic.

There is no apparent reason why the verification process failed. It boots up every day for a couple of weeks and then the next day trouble again, where nothing has changed, Maybe solar flares, position of the moon, jet streams - who knows.