Hi Jay,
I very rarely post on this board. But I couldn't ignore what I just heard without leaving a comment.
Despite the huge leap forward that VSL provides, with all the MIDI
mock-ups I have heard so far I have always felt that the realism is
frustratingly lacking. They always get close, but not close enough to
make me forget what I'm hearing is just a bunch of samples (albeit
cleverly combined). If I hear a MIDI mock-up of a famous piece from the
classical repertoire that is substantially inferior to the real thing
then in my opinion, from a listener's perspective, the whole thing is
pointless. Obviously I'm always going to reach for my recording of
Beethoven performed by the LSO, or other respected orchestra, if it
moves me more than a sampled rendition. If it doesn't make me want to
listen again, then it has ultimately failed in its purpose. And I'm
talking about making music for the love of it, rather than when writing
for media where the practicalities of time and money severely limit the
pursuit of realism and listening pleasure, which play second fiddle to
the needs of the project at hand.
Well I have to tell you that your performance - and I use that word
deservingly - has finally overcome those limitations. I can honestly
say that vast stretches of your rendition of The Rite of Spring were
frighteningly vivid and authentic. With a sampled orchestra there will
always be near misses, where you can hear that a transition, or a
repeated phrase, or the intensity of a note is not quite right. But these
problems have been hammered down into the tiniest of instances by a
truly mighty baton of programming excellence.
I'm sure your efforts will inspire many VSL devotees to try and emulate such a magnificent achievement in their own work.
Pure genius!
-Darren
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@William said:
I agree on that. I stopped listening to the fact it was samples and just listened to the music.
I've noticed that in the last 6 months or so, I've been doing the same thing more and more -- just listening to the musicality of the music. I think recently we've had some very skilled musicians/composers posting. It's such a breath of fresh air to not have to think about the realism and just listen to the artistry of the composition/performance.
Mahlon
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@Mobius said:
Hi Jay,
I very rarely post on this board. But I couldn't ignore what I just heard without leaving a comment.
Despite the huge leap forward that VSL provides, with all the MIDI mock-ups I have heard so far I have always felt that the realism is frustratingly lacking. They always get close, but not close enough to make me forget what I'm hearing is just a bunch of samples (albeit cleverly combined). If I hear a MIDI mock-up of a famous piece from the classical repertoire that is substantially inferior to the real thing then in my opinion, from a listener's perspective, the whole thing is pointless. Obviously I'm always going to reach for my recording of Beethoven performed by the LSO, or other respected orchestra, if it moves me more than a sampled rendition. If it doesn't make me want to listen again, then it has ultimately failed in its purpose. And I'm talking about making music for the love of it, rather than when writing for media where the practicalities of time and money severely limit the pursuit of realism and listening pleasure, which play second fiddle to the needs of the project at hand.
Well I have to tell you that your performance - and I use that word deservingly - has finally overcome those limitations. I can honestly say that vast stretches of your rendition of The Rite of Spring were frighteningly vivid and authentic. With a sampled orchestra there will always be near misses, where you can hear that a transition, or a repeated phrase, or the intensity of a note is not quite right. But these problems have been hammered down into the tiniest of instances by a truly mighty baton of programming excellence.
I'm sure your efforts will inspire many VSL devotees to try and emulate such a magnificent achievement in their own work.
Pure genius!
-DarrenI can't agree with this statement and is not very fair I find. There have been other very realistic mock ups as well, over the past year by various people. Without looking too far listen to Symphony K385 by Mozart and Beethoven 3rd symphony programmed by Yoshitan, which I must say is extremely impressive and realistic. If you tune in more often the recently added page you might be surprised. Vienna Symphonic Library
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I picked my jaw up from the floor after hearing Yoshitan's performances. (Let's finally stop using the derisive term "mockup" now, shall we?)
I would urge you all to listen his the work that has not yet made it to the VSL demo pages:
http://vienna.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/kansei.html
Don't worry about not being able to read Japanese. Just click play on any of these and you'll be amazed. I've been working on Beethoven symphonies for years with VSL and this pretty much takes the cake for now. Yoshi, I bow down low before your awesomeness!
- Paul
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Yes, I also disagreed on this post, because I feel Guy's demos are equally realistic, but also extremely musical and creative. i don't think - as this person seems to - that all other demos are non-entities, but feel there are quite are few others that show an incredible array of technical and composing brilliance.
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I don't know if the poster sent the wrong file to VSL, but the more I listen to these 2 symphony movements, the more it sounds like a real recording, you could hear the breathing noises at all the correct places. Air rushing from string players moving at emotional entrances etc. There is also, specific noises that bows make when they bump the music stand etc. I know all this can be added but....
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I know what you mean ... either this guy is very good, or we've been had.
BTW, on his own site he mentions that he added breathing noises ... and those bows hitting stands sound a lot like creative and judicious use of the VSL col legno samples.
Check out his Beethoven piano concerto here:
http://vienna.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/kansei.html
You'll hear a quite odd breakdown in the piano part that completely convinces you it's not an acoustic instrument recording. Other than that, we seem to now be entering the realm of "maybe it's TOO realistic to be true."
- Paul
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I apologize for starting another topic about this. Administrators can remove that topic if you wish.
If Yoshitan wants to prove that it is all VSL and not part VSL and part live,
I want him to post one minute of either piece without any added noise/s and absolutely no reverb.
If it is VSL as he is claiming, it will be drier than a fish fart on a sandbar.
Then to further prove it, he can send a small portion of the midi and the instrument file.
Dan
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...
Brilliant interpretation by the way...
Michaël
I agree. Whoever is performing in those recordings (i.e., whether it's Jay in the Rite or Yoshitan in the Beethoven 3/Mozart 39) he is a masterful musician with deep grasp of phrasing, balance, humor, energy, tone color and timing. The clarity in the Beethoven 3, for example, is simply stunning.
Paul
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...
Brilliant interpretation by the way...
Michaël
I agree. Whoever is performing in those recordings (i.e., whether it's Jay in the Rite or Yoshitan in the Beethoven 3/Mozart 39) he is a masterful musician with deep grasp of phrasing, balance, humor, energy, tone color and timing. The clarity in the Beethoven 3, for example, is simply stunning.
Paul
Yes of course it's nice, but that wasn't the issue here.....
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I don't "bow down" to this Yoshitan person. My goal is not mere success in aping real instruments. I am so tired of this attitude, that to simply copy what instruments do in real life is the ultimate goal with samples.
I am trying to perform music that cannot or will not otherwise be performed. That is the great achievement of VSL, to allow composers to realize music THAT WOULD NOT OTHERWISE SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY. That is a thousand times more significant than mere success in imitation of something that we already have.
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I understand what you're saying, but if you change "real instruments" to "other orchestras" in your comment, your point of view starts to sound like one that has been commonly expressed in the orchestra world (by composers and champions of contemporary music, at least). Namely:
"Why should we make more concerts or recordings of pieces that are already played hundreds of times each and every year?"
That's a good question, but it's independent of the question of digital vs. acoustic instruments.
Perhaps you'd agree that ANOTHER one of the great achievements of VSL is that it allows unusual and nuanced performances of works we already know (or think we do) that would otherwise never see the light of day. (There are valid musical reasons why some pieces are played over and over again, and not only economic reasons.)
The existence of the VSL opens access to musical expression to performers (not just composers) whose goals include producing great music, regardless of whether composer is alive or dead, or the piece is well known or not. This goal, and the goal of performing music that would not otherwise be performed, co-exist ... and one goal is not 1,000 times more significant just because it happens to be the goal you've chosen. There's room for both in the world, and there's room to choose where to put your focus.
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Yes I completely agree with that Paul and don't mean to attack that concept.
An example of what you are talking about is of course this Rite performance, and why Jay did it. Because he wanted to "play" this particular piece of music for the artistic interest, because it is great music and he wanted to perform it and did a great performance.
It is just that at times i get annoyed when the emphasis is completely on whether or not something sounds real, and who cares what the music is. That is the attitude of many people. They go ape over something if it is a great fake, and could not care less what music is done with it. That irritates me as a composer trying to get music heard, not just fake an orchestra.
