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  4. Creating the illusion of depth beyond reverberation
  • M
    M
    Makes sense! I think in the end it's just a matter of experimentation and experience. So thanks everybody for their input.
  • M
    M

     lowkey,

    A pre-delay on your reverb tail makes a signal seem farther away. Too much pre-delay and you'll get an echo effect, though. With Altiverb, some pre-delay was just what I needed to get the woodwinds to sit back on stage with less presence -- I've found it a little hard to get some of the VSL solo woodwinds to sit behind the violins/violas.

    Mahlon
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD

    Mahlon, this is a common misconception. In nature, a source  _closer_ to the listener will have a longer delay between the direct signal and the first reflections form surrounding walls - simply because the source will have a larger distance to those walls than another source at the back of a stage, close (at least) to one wall.

    ... of course, this doesn't contradict the principle "If it sounds right, it is right!", so don't be shy to use the solution you seem to like :-)

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • M
    M

     Thanks Dietz for the clarification. Does this hold true in the non-natural world of electronic reverberation? I ask because, unless I'm hearing it wrongly, it does seem to set the sound farther back in space. Now you make me wonder if that is just an illusion to my ears -- because I know that often times, I end up hearing what I want to hear.

    Thanks,
    Mahlon
  • M
    M

    edited
  • M
    M

    Yep, I was also confused when reading this for the first time, but it seems to be true, even for the virtual space.


    Thanks for clearing that up, Dietz!
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    You're welcome - but as I said before: Sometimes doing things "wrong" will sound "right" nonetheless. It all depends on context, taste, and luck ;-)
    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB

    About Predelay

    > sound speed 300m/s > 1m = 3.3ms

    Imagine you are standing in the center of a church.

    Now clap your hands!

    After some ms you will get back the first echos - perhaps from the floor or other close surfaces (after 3-6ms).

    Because these reflections arive after a very short time and in nearly every room situation our brain ignores them perhaps

    more or less.

    Then you will get back the first bundle of reflections from the closest walls and other surfaces (after 15ms - 30ms = 5m - 10m = church?).

    These are the "early reflections". Our ears and our brain can "produce" an impression of the room size with this time delay between

    direct clap sound and the delayed reflection sound.

    So when you increase the predelay time you increase the room size impression which also can give an impression of "farther away" on

    the other hand. Of course, there are lots of other parameters which are influencing the building a room impression in our brain such

    as the volume balance "direct sound - delayed sound", density of the early reflections... as Dietz mentioned above.

    Back to our clap... More and more reflections will now reach your ears. They are mixed into each other. Further you will get

    reflections of the reflections... this part of the acoustic feedback we call "reverb".

    Beat

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • M
    M
    Thanks for your detailed explanation. Great! =)
  • B
    B

    I find the speaker placement feature in Altiverb pretty good at placing instruments three dimensionally in a concert hall
  • DietzD
    VSL Team
    DietzD
    last edited
    last edited

    @bobulusbillman said:

    I find the speaker placement feature in Altiverb pretty good at placing instruments three dimensionally in a concert hall

    Hm ... as an avowed fan of AltiVerb I have to admit that this is its only feature that always failed to convince me.

    /Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
  • R
    R

     Hey Dietz - I have always had my predelays on the tails 40ms-50-60 (front to back) - but flipped them per your post.   I must say I do like it.

    Thanks and all the best,

    Rob
  • M
    M
    last edited
    last edited

    I have opened a discussion on my most recent mix, to which some of your suggestions have been applied. Please lend me your ears, guys! Be gentle, but honest. If that combination is possible at all. 😉


    Thanks a lot!
    Heiko
  • R
    R

    Jumping in a little late in this thread... I'll add this to the top-roll-off suggestion: Rather than just cutting highs, I find it sometimes helps to decrease the presence, which means cutting around 4-6 kHz with a rather wide Q. Timpani benefit trememdously from it, for instance; without it, they sound like the conductor is standing on top of them. :-P
  • T
    T
    last edited
    last edited

    @Dietz said:

    Hm ... as an avowed fan of AltiVerb I have to admit that this is its only feature that always failed to convince me.

    Same here. 
  • R
    R

    and what about this plug : KickHaas VST

    Maybe it will help!

    http://www.sknote.it/
  • M
    M

    Thanks. Looks interesting. Definitely worth a try! Though the band in the audiodemo sounds a lot like me playing in the bathroom. ;)


    Cheers, Heiko