Music Pre-Mix/Final Mix

[vibrato]

Hi! There,

I just wanted to open a discussion on how to achieve a good pre-mix or even a composer's final mix after having all parts in order.

What kind of difference do outboard gear like Tube Warmers etc give to 'Sample Based' music.

I would like to limit this discussion to sample based music. Because it will just narrow down the approach and understanding of how various outboard gear and even plug ins affect a sample based music piece.

Often - when composers start out (like myself) - there isnt a dedicated mix engineer who will take care of things in detail or more often - its the amount of time that smaller projects have (very little) - or lack of budget etc.

Especially in Advertising where things move incredibly fast. I am looking to improve my understanding of mixing sample based music with the tools that are available out there - I am open to thinking of outboard gear and also a sub discussion on Plug ins V/S Outboard Gear - For example a $1000 TL Audio Tube Warmer V/S $150 PSP Audioware Vintage Warmer Plug in etc.

I know the tube warmers add even harmonics and give a tape saturation effect which pushes the mix a little further - but I know there is a lot more to things - there are so many very well mixed orchestral tracks in advertising and movies - and we can also talk about maximizing the sound later with something like Sony Inflator - Waves L3 etc - although L3 makes a lot of stuff very sharp and in your face.

But how do you get that loudness without disturbing too much of the dynamic range?

And remember - this is all for Sample Based music - like using Vienna, with perhaps other percussion libraries or layering with synth.

What sort of Outboard gear can be used? After just a basic mix which is work in progress - how do I then finalise the sound later?

Any outboard gear that will make a difference? Things like PSP Vintage Warmer Plug ins? or like a Finaliser etc?

I mean - of course this apart from having Eq, compression etc.

Also - its hard to know about these things as there dont seem to be many books written on this subject.

Best,

Tanuj.

[Dietz]

@vibrato said:

[...] I dont want to spend money on this and later find out that MIR has released on15th Jan. [...]

The Vienna Suite will complement MIR. It's not a question of either/or. :-)

[bluejay]

Hi Tanuj,

I have been using the Vienna Suite a lot recently. I love the presets for the Epic Horns and the strings, they sound wonderful.

In terms of production, I use around 11 instances of Altiverb for positioning combined with VSL Power Panning (and Waves S1 for non-VSL instruments). I do a lot of EQ-ing generally, mostly to remove a lot of low-frequencies that build up when instruments are recorded close-miked (the proximity effect).

One thing that worked for me is to realise that samples are not instruments and Altiverb is not reality. You have to work with samples and convolution reverbs as they are and rules that apply to real instruments recorded in a real space often do not work with samples.

Anyway, I often use Nomad Factory's D82 Sonic Maximizer on my final mix to add some sheen. I usually limit with Waves L1. For an example of this kind of mix check out Epic Journey on my website (http://www.jamessemple.com/music.php). Although there are some live instruments on it there's a lot of VSL on there.

[Dietz]

Interesting thoughts, Tanuj!

@Another User said:

[...] The low end is mostly the problem. Highs and mids can mostly be fixed. Getting the right low end if a problem I face a lot - actually also the mids. 

 

Cutting things off between 240 and 280 does make it sound better. Also around 500 Hz is a good idea. Below 30-35 can go depending on what frequencies the music mix has. 

All very valid thoughts. The problem is that while this will help a lot as long as you want to push an instrument away from you (acoustically), those are exacty the frequencies you will perceive as "intimacy" or "warmth" when you aim for a chamber-music-like setting. There is no rule that fits all situations.

Best,

[bluejay]

@Dietz said:

If someone's using AltiVerb's stage-positioning features, then there's nothing wrong with 11 or more instances (... apart from the fact that I absolutely dislike the results of this very feature

Oh, thanks Dietz...   [;)] To be honest I've found this to be the only way to add some "distance" to very bright and close samples of instruments that should be at the back of the hall (such as brass). I agree that the results could be better. Do you recommend a different way of doing this or do you tend to prefer a brighter and closer sound? regards

James

[Dietz]

Uh - were did I write "discount"? ... 8-/ ... What I'm trying to say is: Vienna Suite and Vienna MIR are two independent products which complement each other very well.

I don't know much about Herb's plans for discounts and the like, though. ;-)

HTH,

[herb]

MIR will be defenitely not an upcoming additional reverb plugin for the Vienna Suite.

I've talked about a kind of "regular" reverb.

best

Herb

[clarkcontrol]

I find that panning (using the Dir mixer in Logic) has given me a tremendous sense of space (especially as it pertains to doublings). In fact, I made this a part of my template immediately after first using a panner that could narrow the spread. Things like reverb and eq are so much easier to predict and control when the sound source is more like a 'real' orchestral recording. As a result, I hardly use compression--maybe on the 2bus if the dynamics are too wide. ---Clark

[clarkcontrol]

Also, I'll put a room verb on each track BEFORE the Dir mixer to push the instrument back. So the signal chain for each instrument is: EQ, big room, Dir mixer, aux send to space designer. Not scientific, I know, but it mixes better with stuff like project sam, etc.---Clark

[Banquo]

I say we hear how Dietz mixes! Admit it, they're always pretty damn good...

[Simsy]

Hi

I have been going through the same thoughts lately. So I thought I would chime in with my next plan!! I use altiverb for the placement and then have 4 altiverbs on sends for depth. I also add a little  artifical reverb with my TC Powercore card using the VSS3 reverb plugin. But I was planning on selling the powercore card and moving to an external hardware reverb unit, like a lexicon.

What are peoples thoughts on hardware reverb compared to plugins?