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  • Articulation fails in Sibelius 5

    Hi, I got the integration between Sibelius 5 and VE to work great. Do articulation such as Pizz or sluring (legato) in strings for instance should be read in each instruments matrix? Right now it doesn't and I thought that this is what it's all about when you integrating those two. Thank you!

  • Hi muziv!

    With the help of the sound sets articulation changes should work automatically. For first steps with Sibelius and Vienna Ensemble I recommend watching our tutorial video at the following location
    http://vsl.co.at/en/211/1343/1348/243.vsl

    ... and reading the Sibelius 5.2 and Vienna Ensemble setup guide you can find at the following location:
    http://vsl.co.at/en/68/375/377/239.htm

    Best wishes,
    Andi


    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Hello Andi,

    First post on the VSL forum. (I'm away from my email at present so can't write direct).

    I have a specific problem with the playback getting stuck in staccato mode. On the Sibelius forum this has been written about as the 'non-sustain bug'. This happens whether I write staccato or use dots. The score is ignoring any reset commands such as nat. and is also ignoring legato and slurs. It is even ignoring the MIDI message ~N27,10 which should trigger legato. Not only this, but once this bug kicks in it plays everything staccato from earlier in the score before the staccato command was reached.

    This is very frustrating and has cost me hours trying and failing to over-ride. It means I cannot play a score back and have it sound as it should. This is a bit like having a new and superbly engineered car and finding that the key doesn't quite turn in the ignition.

    I badly need a work-around. What about note on note off MIDI messages? I don't know this command. Is is a single command for all instruments?

    Readers of the Forum working with Sibelius and VSE ought to know, for example, that writing staccato does not trigger the staccato articulation but rather the perf-spiccato. There ought to be some documentation to list such anomalies (even when they were made with good judgement). If staccato text does not trigger the staccato patch the user must define another term to trigger the actual staccato patch - this appears to involve editing both the Playback Dictionary and the Sound Set Editor - though I still don't have a set of instructions that actually describe step-by-step how this is done.

    The devising of the VSE soundset was a tremendous step. But it seems to me users need more documentation - like a list of Playback terms and the patches they trigger by default (with the understanding that they can obviously be redefined by the user). That would save a lot of time and grief.

    I think also having the articulation trigger process for notation composers work transparently has a financial incentive for VSL. It is a positive disincentive for me to buy more articulations if I cannot trigger them from the score.

    I'm a relative beginner at this - so I hope what I have writtne is accurate.

    Best wishes,

    Rikky Rooksby


  • Hello Rikky!

    Sorry for the inconviniences.
    If one staff is stuck with one articulation there probably is a mismatch with Sound IDs of the staff, the Sibelius mixer and/or your manual sound sets settings. Normally it works when going to the Sibelius mixer and setting the Sound ID of the instrument (3rd line of every instrument in the mixer). If this doesn't work I can only offer you to send me your score and Playback Configuration files. I will take a look at it and maybe I can find some solution. I think it would be good to send the first two paragraphs of your message to the Sibelius support team as well.

    What you are writing about perf-spiccato applies only to the strings of the Special Edition PLUS. This was done because spiccato and staccato patches sound very similar and the perf-spiccato patch works better for repeated notes.
    In the Special Edition and all wind instruments of the Special Edition PLUS always the staccato samples are triggered.
    If in some cases you want the staccato patch and not the perf-spiccato, you can send MIDI commands. In this case this would be:
    ~N24,64 (Keyswitch for C1)
    ~O24,64 (Note off for the keyswitch)
    ~C1,0 (MIDI Controller 1 with value 0)

    Note on MIDI messages look like this ~N24,64 (24 would be the pitch, in this case C1; 64 would be the velocity)
    Note off MIDI messages look like this ~O24,64 (24 would be the pitch, in this case C1; 64 would be the velocity)
    These commands always work for the staff (instrument) they are assigned to.

    Your wish for a list of playback terms is recognized. ;-)

    Btw.: There are sound sets for all our string collection which will give you the possibility to trigger lots of articulations which are not included in the Special Editions.

    Brass and Woodwind sound sets will follow soon.

    Best wishes,
    Andi


    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Hello Andi,

    Thanks for your response. I have spoken to Sibelius tech line this morning ... interesting.

    It turns out that (apparently) one should not use the soundset for Plus if one has not loaded any Plus instruments. My score has the PLus soundset but no Plus instruments (saving on RAM).

    Now, I was told (by you or possibly Paul) that the Plus soundset includes the Special Edition soundset and therefore (I thought) it was okay to just work with the Plus soundset - especially if I later decided to change solo violin to solo violin plus in a string orchestra + solo violin piece because I decided I wanted the extra variety of articulations (all this on one instance of Ensemble). Unfortunately it seems that using the Plus soundset when no Plus instruments are loaded can cause confusion in Sibelius. In which case it seems one must open two instances of Ensemble, one for PLus instruments with the PLus soundset, and one with Special Edition instruments and soundset. It seems you can't mix them on a single instance of Ensemble. Or at least this is as much sense as I can make.

    I have three soundsets for Vienna: one for Special Edition Plus, one for Ensemble and one marked VSL. If I have no Plus instruments it seems I should use the Ensemble soundset (not sure what the difference is between it and the other two).

    It seems the orchestral double bass is not available on the list of instruments in the Manual Soundset list in Sibelius PLayback Device for when one is creating a list of channels / instruments, when using the VSL soundset.

    Whether changing the soundset will solve my playback problem I will let you know when I have a chance to check it out later today.

    I hope these posts will be of use in clarifying these issues for others just starting out.

    Best wishes,

    Rikky


  • Hi Rikky!

    Now I see what's going on! [;)]

    The Special Edition PLUS sound set only works with the PLUS matrices. If you want to use the normal Special Edition matrices you will have to load the normal Special Edition sound set. And if you want to combine them activate one VE instance with the Special Edition sound set and one VE instance with the SE+ sound set. I'm sure neither Paul nor myself told you anything contradicting to that. So it must have been a misunderstanding. I don't know what you are concretely refering to, but I guess what was meant is that in the sound set and the matrices for the SE+ the articulations of the normal SE are also included.

    The program for the orchestral doublebasses is called "Doublebass ensemble" in the Special Edition sound set and "Doublebasses orchestral" in the Special Edition PLUS sound set. It should be in the list. Which sound set are you exactly using?

    Best wishes,
    Andi


    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Dear Andi, I have followd these instructions. I copied the sound sets of both 5.2 and 5.1 (because neither worked) into the sounds folder of Sibelius 5 and also as the "readme" file says: straight to the sibelius 5 folder. No results...

  • Hello Andi,

    I seem to have some improvement with a new configuration and the standard soundset, but it has not solved all the problems. I have a bar where despite typing nat., non stacc, legato, or the MIDI note-off message, and espite slurs on the next group of notes, several instrument lines will not quit staccato. They are also strangely low in volume compared to the other lines despite having the same dynamic markings. That would normally make me suspect a MIDI channel conflict but I have checked them and they are okay. I can't send any email at present as I am not at home, so I can't send a copy of the score - but I will on Friday.

    Your reference to the naming of the double bass ensemble I'm afraid raises another question, though this one you will know.

    I created a playback configuration using one instance of Ensemble for a string orchestra score in which there is much divisi. To get the divisi lines to sound different to each other I loaded the following matrices:

    Solo violin / Orch strings / Chamber strings / Orch strings / Chamber strings / Orch Viola / Chamber Viola / Solo cello / Chamber cellos / Orch cellos / Orch basses

    This is meant to play solo violin, violin I (div.), violin II (div.) viola (div.) solo cello, cello (div.) and double bass. 11 staves of music. 11 MIDI channels. What do you think of this procedure - sensible? I like the contrast of the orchestral strings to the chamber and having the chamber as the lower div. line when it is based on fewer players is good. The chamber cellos also have slightly more penetration when used in the cellos upper range (or so it struck me) - that's why I changed the orch cellos to the lower of the two cello lines.

    In each case I loaded standard / extended samples not Plus. Originally I was using the Plus soundset to playback this config. That was when I hit the failed switching problem we have been discussing. If I use the standard soundset the chamber strings do not appear on the list in Sibelius and the orchestral strings are named 'ensemble' - but actually they are the Orchestral strings, not the chamber ones, right ? This is a confusing change of name? So if I use the standard soundset I can't use the chamber strings - I thought they were standard extended, not Plus. Does this mean the standard soundset doesn't cover the extended instruments?

    Thanks for your help,

    Rikky


  • Hi muziv!

    I don't know what you mean with no results. Do you see Vienna Ensemble in the list of virtual instruments? When you activate Vienna Ensemble, is it possible to choose VE Special Edition as your sound set?

    If not, please copy the sound set(s) to the following folder (as stated in the readme file),
    Windows XP: Documents and Settings\your username\Application Data\Sibelius Software\Sibelius 5\Sounds
    Windows Vista: Users\your username\AppData\Roaming\Sibelius Software\Sibelius 5\Sounds
    Mac OS X: Users/your username/Library/Application Support/Sibelius Software/Sibelius 5/Sounds

    You may have to create the "Sounds" folder if it’s not there. (Don't copy it straight to the Sibelius 5 folder as you have written).

    Best,
    Andi


    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Hi Rikky!

    The Special Edition sound set covers the standard and extended instruments (including the chamber strings).
    For Sibelius it isn't important if the string ensemble is in fact an orchestral or a chamber string sound. In both cases the program violin (or viola, cello, doublebass) ensemble will be the one to choose. Just be careful that you load the right matrices in Vienna Ensemble and get the channels right.

    Be careful with the Solo Strings. In order to to get the Sound IDs right, Sibelius needs to have the Solo Violin (Solo Viola, ...) staff. Violin 1 or Violin I is for String ensembles and will lead to Sound ID confusion with Solo Strings and therefore wrong or not happening articulation changes.

    Best,

    Andi


    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Hi Andi, I really appreciate your devoted help. I'm doing everything you tell me to do. It's supposidly working, however, when I look at an instrument such as a violing for instance in the matrix that is withing the VE, the articulation would be the same throughout the piece. So if I leave it as Legato it will stay legato. It's the same with all other instruments. It's really frustrating because parts of the music sounds good, and some obviously not... So, maybe I'm expecting this integration to be way better than what it really could be? How detailed can I get with this integration and how? It seems to me that whther a phrase is slured or not, if the articulation in the matrix is set to be legato it would be legato...

  • Hi muziv!

    Sorry, you are still having troubles. You definitely have got something wrong. This is not the way it is supposed to work. Articulations should change automatically. Unfortunately you didn't answer my questions, so it is a bit hard for me to help you. Did you manage to load the VE Special Edition sound set or not? Have you set the programs and channels on the Manaul Sound Sets tab?

    I recommend working through the Sibelius 5.2 and Vienna Ensemble setup guide once again.

    Best,
    Andi


    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Andi, Yes I have loaded the VE special edition set and set the channels to manual sounds. I have weird stuff going on such as a bassoon part played by a clarainet (even though it is set in the VE in to the right midi channel and manualy in sibelius..)

  • Did you set a program and MIDI channel in Manual Sound Sets for every staff in your score? If not, Sibelius will send some instruments on channels of other instruments.

    Also be careful to select the right instruments in Sibelius. For example choosing a clarinet from the Sibelius instruments and then renaming it to Bassoon would lead to wrong Sound IDs. By the way. You can check (and change) the Sound IDs of the instruments in the Sibelius mixer (3rd line of each channel).

    Do articulation changes work now or is that also still unresolved?

    Andi


    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • Andi,

    Do you mind if I comment on Musiv's problem setting up instruments?

    It's just that something which happened to me when I was first trying out the VSL / Ensemble might be worth checking. It may be helpful to all beginners.

    I got into terrible confusion loading samples into Ensemble because I forgot to click on Instrument each time before loading. This was because when you click on Instrument 1 and then matrix select, on the left hand side of the interface one sees a vertical set of slots, the first marked 'C0'. I clicked on a matrix from the right hand list and it loaded correctly on the left top slot. But I forgot to click on Instrument 2 - I just clicked on the next matrix - for a different instrument sample and saw that appear in the next slot down. Of course I had just loaded two different instruments into Instrument 1! Actually I wasn't consistent in this, so I did load other samples correctly - but through not understanding the process I did keep making mistakes which messed up playback. To the beginner it is easy to assume that the lefthand slots is a single instance, when in fact there is a different row of slots for each Instrument in the far left list. I hope this is clear to anyone who is just beginning. Perhaps this isn't the problem for musiv - but I thought I should mention it.

    The video goes quite fast, so it is easy to miss the click on the left hand instruments.

    Another thing which might confuse beginners is that loading a sample does not automatically change 'Instrument 1' on the far left to the name of the instrument loaded - you have to type it in yourself. Then it will appear at the top of each channel in the mixer.

    Rikky


  • Guys, thank you. I wish we could all sit in the same room so I could show you what's going on. 1. 1 impotant thing, I use Sibelius 5.1. So that's also the sound set I had put in the silbelius' sounds folder. (I forgot to mention that) - I'm aware of what you've told me so far and doing everything you say. -The only way I could solve the Bassoon problem was by naming it (in Sibelius) Alto sax. God knows why, but it connects to the Bassoon channel in VE. Now, a new problem I have found. I have Vln 1 and II in the piece. they both coming out of the Vln I in VE. This is very frustrating, I wish it was simpler. I work with midi and samplers for over 5 years and this is very difficult to figure out.

  • I strongly recommend updating to Sibelius 5.2.5. Some playback issues have been solved in this version and it is free for Sibelius 5 users. It will also be easier to use.

    In Sibelius 5.1 it is important that you number instruments which are used more than once in a score (for example Violins 2 should get the Sound ID with the ".2" added).

    Andi


    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • okie dokie, so, i finally upgraded to sibelius 5.2, and now, the string are stuck on stacatto (they would change to pizz but stacatto is their default if there's no articulation indicated, even when there are slurs they play stacatto..........

  • When you open Sibelius 5.1 scores with Sibelius 5.2.5 or Sibelius 5.2, please reassign the sound set and programs on the Manual Sound Sets page. Some program names and Sound IDs have changed.

    Btw: I hope you update to the "good version" Sibelius 5.2.5 and not just Sibelius 5.2.

    Andi


    Vienna Symphonic Library
  • yes i did. and i redid the sound sets. the strings = stacattttttttto.