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    @Another User said:

    why can that bloke do that, when that same bloke could never, in the entire procession of cosmological decades to come (after the last of the protons decay and the black holes have all evaporated) ever write something better than Beethoven (or Hlidegard von Bingen for that matter) ?


    huh? (yet again)... "better" (yet again)... Well, aside from that statement being pure fantasy, the process of composing has changed entirely in 50 years, not to mention 200+ years. I certainly hope nobody today, or in the foreseeable future can speak Beethoven's or von Bingen's language better than they could - that would put a whole new meaning to the word anachronism. And just to bring that point home, von Bingen could also never have composed "something better" than Beethoven, if you allow Beethoven to become the benchmark for a moment. And it's not likely Beethoven could have composed "something better" than Penderecki, if you use Penderecki as the benchmark. For that matter, it's beyond highly unlikely that Beethoven could have composed "something better" than von Bingen. He wasn't dedicated at birth to the church, and probably couldn't sing his way out of a karaoke bar. Beethoven was great at composing music of his time, using the tools of his time, as was von Bingen, and Penderecki... The sounds von Bingen, Beethoven, and Penderecki were making were new to all of them. They were searching for something, and music was the medium in which they searched. Whether it's your own voice, a piano, or a computer, that search comes from the same place, and has essentially the same objectives, I think... The real point is that nobody today can ever **hear** music in the same way as von Bingen or Beethoven, or for that matter Penderecki. We can imitate, and pretend that we do, but that's when we start digging down into the truly mediocre. And I'm not talking about the avant-garde, so please don't get started on that... In his best moments Arvo Part is speaking a truly personal language, which miraculously, in spite of its absolute simplicity, blatant tonality, harmonic clarity, and so on, manages to be totally *of his time*... And many have tried to compose "something better" than him, and have failed. There's no prescription for being of one's time, no checklist, there's only the search...

    Anyway, "Rita's" post also suggests that the techniques we're talking about are somehow specific to composing "in the style of" Penderecki, which is obviously just her being controversial, since I know she's EDIT--> *not so lacking* in knowledge and imagination. Your "bloke" will not likely compose "something better" than Penderecki, Beethoven, or von Bingen, looking at it from the narrow frame of the achievements of each. But hopefully he'll compose something worthwhile, that a reasonable number of people will understand to be of some significance... The most difficult thing is to figure out how one can be *of* one's time - not ahead of it, and not behind it. And, for better or worse, the computer is most definitely becoming the instrument of our time. But what's so interesting about the computer, and its application to the compositional process today (and probably continuing into the future), is that it doesn't *necessarily* have to be the medium of performance. I mean, I know this was true of Beethoven's piano, as well, but there's something different about the role of the computer... It can be involved in the process *only*, if the composer has a reasonably developed knowledge of how to use it. I guess it's a bit like knowing music theory, but it has the capacity to include all that, and go far beyond it... But I'm getting into a whole new discussion, so I'll leave it for now.

    J.
  • J
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    I thought I better post my fixes to that last post, for those who get these by email, since some of the mistakes could distort my point significantly!

    1) I meant to say that Angelo is "NOT so lacking in knowledge or imagination" to think that these techniques are relegated to Penderecki knock-offs.

    And, 2) that I'm NOT talking about the avant-garde, which is just a blip of musical activity anyway.

    Sorry for the typos. I rushed that last post off, without the normal proof-read.

    J.
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    @William said:

    You are most astute in prophecying this. Rita, and one must proceed to ask the question:  why can that bloke do that, when that same bloke could never, in the entire procession of cosmological decades to come (after the last of the protons decay and the black holes have all evaporated) ever write something better than Beethoven (or Hlidegard von Bingen for that matter) ?

    In appreciation of direttore W. Kersten, the Ludovico Regnal Year Foundation created the ANNO LUDOVICO NOSTRI VAN BEETHOVENSIS dating system, abbreviated A.L.v.B. (after Ludwig van Beethoven).

    Today on the Friday 11th of October 2008 A.C. at 00h:00m:00s the dating system is switched. And from Saturday at 00h:00m:01s the new Ludovico Mean Time (LMT) is effective. We enter the regnal year 238 A.Lv.B. in less then ten 12 minutes. Beethovenmas is on the 17th of December. The birthdate of Hildegard von Bingen is 672 B.L.v.B. (before Ludwig van Beethoven).

    .
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    @Angelo Clematide said:

    Beethovenmas is on the 17th of December. The birthdate of Hildegard von Bingen is 672 B.L.v.B. (before Ludwig van Beethoven).
     

    [:D] 
  • W
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    Excellent!  I appreciate your noting this important date in music history.

  • W
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    "huh? (yet again)... "better" (yet again)... Well, aside from that statement being pure fantasy, the process of composing has changed entirely in 50 years, not to mention 200+ years. I certainly hope nobody today, or in the foreseeable future can speaks Beethoven's or von Bingen's language better than they could - that would put a whole new meaning to the word anachronism. And just to bring that point home, von Bingen could also never have composed "something better" than Beethoven, if you allow Beethoven to become the benchmark for a moment. And it's not likely Beethoven could have composed "something better" than Penderecki, if you use Penderecki as the benchmark. For that matter, it's beyond highly unlikely that Beethoven could have composed "something better" than von Bingen. He wasn't dedicated at birth to the church, and probably couldn't sing his way out of a karaoke bar. Beethoven was great at composing music of his time, using the tools of his time, as was von Bingen, and Penderecki... The sounds von Bingen, Beethoven, and Penderecki were making were new to all of them. They were searching for something, and music was the medium in which they searched. Whether it's your own voice, a piano, or a computer, that search comes from the same place, and has essentially the same objectives, I think... The real point is that nobody today can ever **hear** music in the same way as von Bingen or Beethoven, or for that matter Penderecki. We can imitate, and pretend that we do, but that's when we start digging down into the truly mediocre. And I'm not talking about the avant-garde, so please don't get started on that... In his best moments Arvo Part is speaking a truly personal language, which miraculously, in spite of its absolute simplicity, blatant tonality, harmonic clarity, and so on, manages to be totally *of his time*... And many have tried to compose "something better" than him, and have failed. There's no prescription for being of one's time, no checklist, there's only the search...

    Anyway, "Rita's" post also suggests that the techniques we're talking about are somehow specific to composing "in the style of" Penderecki, which is obviously just her being controversial, since I know she's so lacking in knowledge and imagination. Your "bloke" will not likely compose "something better" than Penderecki, Beethoven, or von Bingen, looking at it from the narrow frame of the achievements of each. But hopefully he'll compose something worthwhile, that a reasonable number of people will understand to be of some significance... The most difficult thing is to figure out how one can be *of* one's time - not ahead of it, and not behind it. And, for better or worse, the computer is most definitely becoming the instrument of our time. But what's so interesting about the computer, and its application to the compositional process today (and probably continuing into the future), is that it doesn't *necessarily* have to be the medium of performance. I mean, I know this was true of Beethoven's piano, as well, but there's something different about the role of the computer... It can be involved in the process *only*, if the composer has a reasonably developed knowledge of how to use it. I guess it's a bit like knowing music theory, but it has the capacity to include all that, and go far beyond it... But I'm getting into a whole new discussion, so I'll leave it for now." - JBM

    ***********************

    What an outburst! 

    I must have touched a nerve.

    Well, all I can say is, no, it is not that complicated.  Beethoven could blow anybody's butt off the map as a composer, to this day.  All that bullshit about one's time, etc., does not apply to artists who transcend their time - as he did, beyond almost any other human being in history. Penderecki is a sniveling wretch comparable to a chimp with score paper and crayons next to Beethoven.
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    @William said:

    Well, all I can say is, no, it is not that complicated.  Beethoven could blow anybody's butt off the map as a composer, to this day.  All that bullshit about one's time, etc., does not apply to artists who transcend their time - as he did, beyond almost any other human being in history. Penderecki is a sniveling wretch comparable to a chimp with score paper and crayons next to Beethoven.

    It is even simpler then that.

    Only Beethoven is composer!

    Anybody else must be classified as chimp with score paper and crayons!

    The International Chimp Chart (a.k.a. the non-beethoven list):

    #00000001 Zimmer (Hans)

    #00000004 Lutoslavsky

    #00000007 James Last

    #00000008 Andrew Lloyd Webber

    #00000009 Bach, Johann Sebastian

    #00000011 Liberace

    etc.

    #00000101 Bill Clinton

    #00000107 Kersten, William (---> the only Bonobo among the music scibbling apes and humans)

    #00000107½  Karlheinz Stockhausen

    #00000108 John Adams

    ...

    #00020390 Henryk Gorecki

    #00020391 Alfred Schnittke

    etc.

    #02100391 Elton John 

    #02100392 George W. Bush (he played recorder as a child)

    #02100393 Barber, Samuel

    #02100394 Aaron Copland

    #02100395 Fritz Kreisler

    #02100396 Emile Waldteufel

    And then there is Rita, the premier Sackpfeifer from San Marino, but that's a whole other profession and category.

    .
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    I understand that the chimp list is all composers that are not Beethoven, but why does J.S. Bach have to be so high on the list?  Huh? Personally I wouldn't put him on the list at all.  It seems quite over-zealous to think of Bach as a the #9 chimp with crayons and staff paper. [:)]
  • W
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    I am NOT a chimp.  I find that suggestion very insulting. Chimps are quite aggressive and war-like. 

    I am a Bonobo. We solve our problems with love, not war.  Our list tends to feature both the Eastern-influenced bonobos, whose music reflects a certain peaceful, meditative  state of mind,  as well as porno music such as Rita's work, which has been highly influential among our kind.  It of course features the Bass Flute which is in fact revered as a phallic diety.  Just last night as a matter of fact I attended a very invigorating ceremony around the lingam during which a composition of mine was premiered. I did the marimba solo by the way, and it all came off very well I must say.
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    @William said:

    I am NOT a chimp.  I find that suggestion very insulting. Chimps are quite aggressive and war-like. 

    I am a Bonobo. We solve our problems with love, not war.  Our list tends to feature both the Eastern-influenced bonobos, whose music reflects a certain peaceful, meditative  state of mind,  as well as porno music such as Rita's work, which has been highly influential among our kind.  It of course features the Bass Flute which is in fact revered as a phallic diety.  Just last night as a matter of fact I attended a very invigorating ceremony around the lingam during which a composition of mine was premiered. I did the marimba solo by the way, and it all came off very well I must say.

    My assistent Dr. med. vet. Rita G. Hasenfratz-LeBlanc corrected this terrible frailty.

    Btw, Rita also plays the Sub-Contrabass clarinet, and premiers a tone poem titled "Low BBBBb-Spot Tornado for Octocontrabass Clarinet and large Orchestra", sculptured in 1976. The score is also avalable for EEEb octocontralto clarinet, however I will not attend the concert for reasons William already mention at the end of his post.
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    Who's the guy in Switzerland that's become a sort of Rocket Man? Fantastic achievement. It's just amazing to see the pictures of this chap flying over the English Channel in minutes.
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    @PaulR said:

    Who's the guy in Switzerland that's become a sort of Rocket Man? Fantastic achievement. It's just amazing to see the pictures of this chap flying over the English Channel in minutes.

    His name is Yves Rossi, and he calls himself Jetman, or fusionman

    http://www.fusionman.ch/prod/index_en.html

    whole Switzerland and Austria is hoping that Yves plays a marimba on  his next flight from Geneva to Vienna.
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    @Angelo Clematide said:

    His name is Yves Rossi, and he calls himself Jetman, or fusionman


    Ok thanks. I thought it might have been you as a matter of fact.
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    @William said:

    I am a Bonobo. We solve our problems with love, not war.
     

    Not always, apparently.
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    Well, I hoped this would be kept  quiet but I see you have spilled the beans.  Of course my own behavior has provided evidence of this unfortunate tendency among our kind.  Still, we can hope that the future will be brighter and more peaceful. 

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    o.k. I will stick with the bonobo tribe
  • PaulP Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on