Hello all,
I am somewhat new to vienna inst, though I have some experience using older libraries. I have the App strings standard library and SE standard. I have this repetitive arp style cello line that I want to be featured in a score. I love the way it sounds with the app cello's leg perf patch. The only thing is it does have a falseness that I can't seem to get rid of. It totally has to do with the repetition. At first I thought it was due to my limited 2 velocity layers, but I tried the demo of the 4 layers from the extended library, and that didn't really do it. I also tried using the velocity cross fader , but that didn't do it. I really like the sound of them in the lower velocity layer. I tried chancing the velocities in the repeated notes both randomly and systematically to no avail.. I quite like the sound with a fixed lower velocity (Think Philip Glass-the Hours), but when it comes to the repeated notes it does sound like a sample inst.. So I tried using the detache sample for the repeated notes, but it's attack is much louder than a legato at the same velocity. I tried lowering the velocity on the detache sample to match the leg I am using, and switching between the samples in the phrase. This sounds better. Am I going about this correctly? Any of you more experienced users out there have any suggestions? Any help would be hugely appreciated. Here is a midi file..
https://www.yousendit.com/download/bVlCOU1RUzhiV3gzZUE9PQ ..........I have a simple matrix with legato in 1a, and detache in 2a. The keyswitches are default of C and C#. If anyone could run this and give me pointers I would be so happy!
A note, When you open the midi file-if in logic- It opens in a default environment..I don't think vienna settings transfer in the midi file..
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Help with a cello line please..
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Hi Ducasse,
I think you'll get more response if you bounce your cello line to disk and post an audio file instead of a midi file. I think a lot of people, including myself, like to use their ears to decide the right course of action rather than analyze someone's midi data.
On the Logic end, there are two ways to get velocity data out of Vienna Instruments: 1) Turn Vel-X-Fading Off and rely on the velocity value of each note, or 2) Turn Vel-X-Fading On and rely on a CC level input to determine the velocity value. If you're using option 1 and are using Logic as your only source of midi editing, then you must either play in the notes at the desired velocities (this is difficult...I think) or manually adjust them in Hyper editor a note at a time. If you're using option 2 then I would recommend drawing in the CC data in track view rather than in the hyper editor of each track (or, like option 1, record in real-time with a midi device the CC data). Often there are many reasons you would want to use option 1 rather than 2, and vice versa as it all depends on the context.
Hope this helps! [:)]
Brian
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Hi Brian, Thanks for your reply. All that you say about velocities in Logic makes sense. I do use all the different ways for different occasions. I do have a question though.. Does the velocity crossfader completely negate the velocities that I played in? I assume that the fader is sending automated velocity data to the sampler, with the bonus that it allows you to play between the velocity layers with a crossfade. As long as the slider is sending velocity data, then I understand it.. Here is the link to a dry cello line mp3. https://www.yousendit.com/download/bVlDNWN0bThJMHRMWEE9PQ The phrase starts with a legato sample, in the middle of the phrase it goes to detache and then returns to legato. I adjusted he velocities so the samples (sort of) match... If I only use the legato patch I get this kind of "pumping" sound I cant get rid of.. So I wonder how other people may approach this line. Thanks for your time. I appreciate any input .
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Hi,
Yes you are correct, when Vel-X-Fading is On it completely negates the velocities of the individual notes and only the CC data matters. I listened to your cello line and here are a few suggestions:
1) Put it in a reverb space, or if it is, use more because it doesn't sound like its in a concert space.
2) Mix in a solo cello, preferrably on a another track so that midi data does not match up exactly. Something like %25 solo cello, 75% app. celli. However, for a quick an dirty approach you could put a solo cello patch in the lower cell of your App. legato patches and then adjust the volume, attack, release, delay, and length in the solo cello cell simulate the effect of using solo cello track.
3) Use portamento, sparringly, but it helps in the smaller intervals.
4) Add some release length using perfomance control. If you still get some pumping sound, then on some notes you might consider using a little length to the attack as well.
Brian [:)]
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Hey Brian, Thanks for those suggestions! The release length helped nicely as did the solo cello on top. I have a couple more questions. Do you do a lot of attack and release automation in the performance area, or do you just make the settings for a track in the cell editor area. I noticed there were more parameters there (sus, RDL? -release delay?) etc but they can't be automated. It add a was thinking you couldn't use those settings because they would affect the future passages on that track that may use that cell, but you could just add another legato cell (or whatever patch you are using) that is the default settings... Do you know of any good places to start with Space designer? VSL is inspiring. Space designer is not (for me). I am having a hard time with getting good reverb on these big APP sounds. It always sounds muddy.. Thanks again for the suggestions! Chris
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Hi Chris,
Yes, I do use a lot of attack and release automation in the performance control area. What I mainly use the cell editor controls for is the quick and dirty way to mix in a solo cello patch with my app. celli legato patches. Because the universal mode is setup with a speed controller I put underneath each app. legato patch a comporable solo strings patch with the attack delay, attack length, release length, and release delay altered in different ways from cell to cell horizontally. This way as I play a line and the speed controller kicks in my solo patch keeps getting altered. I should also mention that in doing this I also enable the Cell-X-Fading, so that I can dynamically adjust the volume relationship between the two patches with the Cell-X-Fading controller in the Performance Control area. As I said when I'm in a hurry I believe this is a great way to quickly mix in solo patches with your app. strings without having to create a separate solo string track, although two separate tracks is probably the best sounding way to mix in solo strings. If this is still confusing, I'll post a picture of what I'm doing and I think you'll get the feel of it.
Reverb! Ahhh.....the absolute key to making VSL sound amazing, the essential ingrediant to a great mix, and when misused is most often the biggest contributing factor to why some VSL recordings sound so disappointing. I am no reverb expert, but I have learned a few things along the way in my VSL adventures. These suggestions should help with the "muddy-ness" of the mix.
1) I believe the quality of your reverb goes a long way to achieving that beatiful sound with VSL. Assuming one knows what they're doing and all things being equal...crappy reverbs will yield crappy results, decent reverbs will yield decent results, and great reverbs will yield great results. I know what you mean about not being impressed with Space Designer and I have tried to get it to sound good, but I believe Altiverb is a far superior plug-in to Space Designer when it comes to reverb. Ultimately if you want your VSL to sound better, you'll have to break out the money and get a better plug-in, or if you really want break the bank get a great hardware reverb. I'm always slightly amazed as I hear about people spending thousands of dollars on many VSL libraries, and then decide to just run the whole thing through the generic reverb that came with their sequencer. [:P] Seems bizarre to me!
2) You must use some amount of dry from the VSL stems. In Logic I split my stems sending each stem to a wet bus and a dry bus. I send all my stems to the wet bus at a level of -6 dB. Notice I say, "...a bus..." this means that you may or may not be using the same wet bus for winds, strings, brass, percussion, etc. I'm currently working on a Macbook Pro, so don't have the luxury of having a huge variety of reverb instances, so I only work with two wet busses which are basically front and back. Strings and Woodwinds go the the front, Brass and Perc. to the back. The dry bus levels depend on how you want to position the instruments on the stage as very little dry will put them further back as more dry will place them further forward. If I'm sending -6 dB to all wet busses, then something like a range of -7.3 dB to -9.1 dB are used for the strings dry bus, -12 dB for the woodwinds dry bus, something like -10.5 dB to 11.6 dB for the Brass, and -12 dB to -14 dB for the Perc. It may look funny that the Brass has more dry that the woodwinds (as Brass should sit behind woodwinds), but remember the Brass are going to the back wet bus so their reverb is already deeper than the front wet bus that the strings and woodwinds are going to. Hope this makes sense.
3) I find, and others have mentioned this, that VSL generally needs some upper frequency EQ added to the entire mix. I do this on the Stereo Output Track in Logic. The only problem with this is that it makes some instruments sound funny while other sounds great. Upper strings, flutes, clarinets, trumpets, etc. really zing in the mix this way, but the horns, trombones, basses, etc. sound flat and lack punch. The only solution to this is to go back and EQ the instruments individually, I can really get into the exact settings here, but when I have time I'm going to post my template on the forum so that people can scutinize my settings and hopefully help me arrive at better settings in the future.
I hope these suggestions will help you get better reverb results.
Brian
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Hey Brian, Thanks so much for the info! I was thinking about investing in Altiverb... Maybe now is the time. I think I understand your matrix idea. So as the speed controller switches to faster legato samples, in the B cell of the faster legato samples you have a similar legato solo cello, geared toward the faster passage etc.. I understand having the 2 depths of reverb, but as far as routing, I am not so sure. I bus the dry signal to the reverb at a pre fader level, Then the track plays dry, and I can control the amount of dry with my regular track fader. Is this wrong? Should I be bussing the dry signal to another track? Thank you for all the pointers on levels and grouping. I will try some light eq once I have a finished project.. ;)
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Hey Chris,
I think Altiverb is a very good option for reverb and I know a lot of people use it with VSL. As I've said before, I'm certainly no expert and I know Altverb is not the only good solution for reverb out there. I think I'm just partial to it because I currently like the sound, and it didn't break the bank to buy it. One thing I've learned for sure is that VSL is a ladder experience in that the way I'm using VSL now was not the way I used it a year ago, and that what I like right now is no guarantee to be what I'll like in the future as I expand my understanding of VSL. You should ultimately trust your own ears when it comes to what you think sounds good! Although sharing on this forum helps! [:)]
As for busing, I know Christian Kardeis uses the system you described with pre bus sends to a reverb bus. I don't think there is substantially any difference between the "Kardeis" method and mine as far as getting the right wet/dry mix. The reason I post send to a dry and wet bus (by the way each track would also have "no output" selected at the bottom this way) is because I want to keep the track fader as a volume control. This is mainly because I'm working on a Macbook Pro, have to freeze tracks in larger orchestral situations, and like being able to adjust volume levels between the instruments while the tracks are frozen
As soon as I have some time I'm going to post my template and some of these things will be clearer when you see the template.
Brian [:)]