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  4. Reverb Send: Befor or after altiverb positioning?

  • Reverb Send: Befor or after altiverb positioning?

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    After such a long time of using altiverb, this question looks a litte silly to me, but somehow today I started to wonder, if my signal flow is right. Example: My flute goes thru altiverb track positioning and is beeing sent to the reverb bus afterwards. So the reverb is made of a processed signal. Shouldn´t the reverb get a clear signal instead? To my understanding I would otherwise put a reverb to the signal, arriving at my position, instead of the original singnal.
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    Hi Felix,

    I saw that your post was a few days old and thought I'd reply.  I have tried many times to use the Altiverb positioning and could never get it to approximate the kind of sound I was going for.  I finally bit the bullet some time ago and bought the Waves S1 Stereo Imager.  I now use Altiverb as a room only on my wet bus and keep its default positioning.  The S1 Imager sits as plug-in on each track and determines the width and positioning left to right, while the wet/dry mix determines the positioning front to back of each track.  I believe this is a far more realistic approximation of a real orchestra setting than using Altiverb positioning.

    So basically my Altiverb instances (the wet bus) are receiving a dry signal that is stereo image reduced and rotated appropriately while at the same time my dry bus is getting that same stereo image reduced and rotated signal.  At this point all you have to do is determine the right wet/dry mix to get the instrument as far forward or back as needed.

    Cheers,

    Brian
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    Sounds logic to me. I´m thinking of another way right now, but I´m not sure, how it will sound: The original signal is stereo imaged with S1 and is then beeing sent via pre-bus-sends to 6 different busses: 3 altiverb busses without direct signal, just using reverb and ER of one room, but with 3 different mic positions (e.g. teldex 5m, 10m and 19m) and 3 busses with just the direct signal of the 3 mic positions with positioning track switch on, but left in the center. By using all 6 send faders + the direct fader, I hope to get more detailed positions, since e.g. the violin section might reach from 5 m till 13 m. Does this make sense?
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    Hi Felix,

    I think your routing plan makes sense, except for the fact that you wouldn't need any dry busses if you're using the pre-bus-send on your tracks.  The track itself is providing the dry signal because the position of the track fader is determining the wet/dry mix.  You would only need a dry bus if you were using the post-bus-sends, in which case the track fader is controlling the volume and not the wet/dry mix.  Using the post-bus sends your wet/dry mix would be determined by how much you send to your wet bus versus your dry bus.  Does that make sense?

    I use the post-bus-send method to get my wet/dry mix because I like to keep the track fader as a volume controller, but there really isn't any substantial difference between pre-send and post-send in getting the right wet/dry mix.

    I like the idea of using multiple Altiverb instances to get a complete sonic picture of the room.  I'm going to have to experiment with that! [:)]

    Brian
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    I thought of the volume fader as another "send"-fader: Send-Faders #1-#4 go to busses with altiverb positioning (no reverb), while my volume-fader adds just a very little bit of clean direct signal. In my case it is set to - 25 db, so it´s not really used as a volume fader. . Still the big secret to me is altiverbs knob for the color: I read, that you should eather use it full or turned off. But this changes the sound so radical, that I don´t like to use it. On the other hand I have heard excellent mixes by Miklas Power, who says, that he´s turning the color fully to IR.
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    Hi Felix,

    I've experimented with the direct signal on Altiverb.  I came to the conclusion that I like the sound better when I use dry from the VSL stems and mute the direct in Altiverb.  The other possibility is to use the direct with full colored IR.  However, if one does that I don't think using dry from the VSL stems with it is a good idea.  I think using one or the other strategy sounds pretty good, but I like the muting direct strategy better because I can get more clarity out of the sound that way.

    Brian

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    Hi Felix,

    I just reread your previous posts and realized that I think I misinterpreted your strategy.  I read your comments about direct and thought you meant dry, but now I realize you mean the colored direct IR from Altiverb.  So am I interpreting this correctly in that you mute the direct on your wet busses and use the direct (with muted early reflections and muted tail) on your dry busses? Interesting, I don't think I've ever done it that way, but it certainly has potential.  This way you could have a lot more control of the colored sound than just using direct on your wet busses.

    Brian

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    Gents

    If you use the pre send option for the fader to control the wet/dry mix what do use to control the volume?

    Regards

    Mirabile
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    Mirable, my volume fader is just used to add a little dry signal, which is not processed by one or more of the other "direct signals". Unlike all other "direct sends", going via pre sends thru altiverb instances, which just use the positioning without reverb or early reflections. I have to add, that I´m not a good mixer and this is just a thought. Brian, you got me right. But even with this way of mixing, I still feel a little unsecure about the color knob. Example: The horns should be in the back. So I should not add clear direct signal (via volume fader) at all. The problem is, that even the fully turned color knob for a close signal like Teldex 5m, is changing the sound too radically, that the horns get a very different sound. Do you have the same experience? Should we turn the color knob just a little?
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    Hi Felix,

    Ok, I made up a quick little test.  I just played this horn line into my concert hall template using the legato patch.  Both examples have a dry bus and a wet bus.  The DryHornTest file uses dry form the VSL stems.  The DirectHornTest file uses direct full color IR from Altiverb as a plug-in on the dry bus.  Personally I think the DryHornTest sounds more realistic, but I see potential in using direct...maybe just not sure how to use yet.

    Brian

    http://www.aeneaseditions.com/DryvsDirect/DryHornTest.wav

    http://www.aeneaseditions.com/DryvsDirect/DirectHornTest.wav

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    I see it the same way. Interesting would be, how the DirectHorn sounds, if you send it thru altiverb with positioning track switched on, but color turned to flat, if that makes sense.
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    Here is a little example of my problem with the IR knob. Turning it to IR instead of flat makes everything sound much to "dark". Maybe I´m doing something wrong? First part is flat, second IR: .http://www.hohes-b.de/Flat_then_Colored.mov
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    I think colored sounds better than flat, but the colored portion sounds like it's been pushed farther away, is that the Altiverb positioning?  Overall, I think I'm going to keep using the dry from the VSL stems, but will continue experimentation with running dry through Altiverb's direct.

    Brian

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    It´s altiverb with positioning track switched on, but the speaker left at their original position. It´s strange to me, why the color knob pushes the sound so far away. Even if you choose a 5m IR.