I thought I payed for this already. I remember in the old discussions about "never pay twice for a sample" when the VI was released, that one of the the arguments from VSL was something like all this re-programming costs! Well, I go on drinking some alcohol and chopping some wood as Beat proposed... that sure will solve the problem... š Flemming@DG said:
Maybe if you approach VSL and offer to pay for all the many, many hours of editing to make this possible, they would do it for you. I don't know. However, before you go this route just think about how many samples have to be re-edited and mapped. Thousands, I would imagine. This will not be cheap.
DG
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It seems to be that we are caught in a verbal storm soon - ...[li]
Not necessary
Flemming, you diagnosed an articulation which doesn't play like others we have. Nothing against this matter!
Neither DG nor I (2 users like you) can solve this problem - perhaps VSL.
Beat [H]
- Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/ -
SORRY BEAT! I thought you worked at VSL! Sorry for being picky on you. I'll by you a beer one day (more alcohol). Someone from the team - please report back. You're needed here! ;-) Anyway, I'v just used these (damn) solo strings so much lately, but right now I loaded in a violin ensemble Legato patch, and it does work like I think the solo legato patches should. Looped sustained notes when playing legato. :-) Flemming
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No I don't work at VSL - but...
Sometimes I work for VSL (demos) and very often I work with VSL (with the samples [:)] )
Further: VSL made a dream true: Owning musicians as a small ensemble or as a large
orchestra which can play almost everything. Demos
Have a nice day
Beat
- Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/ -
Im going to have to chip in on this issue myself. As a composer who has just started using the Solo Strings 1 not being able to just enter long sustained notes without having to further add the control messages for sustain is a huge issue. I'm not sure if i want to spend the time adding the sustain data for all these long notes... In fact i do now wonder what VI are for... composers who use MIDI to prototype before getting performers to perform or for those who who want to bypass real players entirely. I'm with NORDKROG on this. VI really don't seem to be ideal for those composing for real instruments.
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Hello zentrumsounds
Here is another point of view:
If you play in reality two or more notes without changing the bow direction then are playing legatos and you should chose the "legato samples" with VSL for this situation.
In reality you have 75cm hors hairs with colophonium (Violin Bow) for playing such legatos - then you must change the bow direction! So if your wish is to play endless sustained notes after a legato-note-change it is either possible with ensembles (musicians can organize the bow changes within the ensemble that the listener isn't able to make out the direction changes) or with midi violins.
Nice when Solo Violins of other Libraries contain legato loops but the VSL violin is closer to the reality - even if you think it is an error of the library.
So if the your solo violin don't play any more after playing a legato note section a short time later then you know as composer:
Aahh! I have to set the same note all over again because one bow direction of the violin player is "used" [:)].
"DaaaaaaaaaRaaaaaaaaaaaDaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
DownBow------------------------- UpBow-------------------------
Legato ---------------------------- Legato/Sustain/Diminuendo or what ever
Beat Kaufmann
- Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/ -
Hi Beat,
Thanks for joining. Well, you're right of course that no violin player can play sustained note forever. But I must say that all violin players i Have worked with have been capable of keeping a note in one bow for quite longer than the VI propose. If I limited my writing to follow your way of seeing it, the conclusions would be:
If the violin player plays two notes legato, that second note can only rest a few seconds.
If I let him lift the bow and make a new attack, he can keep the note forever.
Yes I know, the VI loops such a single long note, and you can hear the change of direction. But as soon as this note is tied together with a precedent note, the violin player can no longer make sustained notes with bow direction changes.
Furthermore the VI suggest that a player would stop playing a note when he reaches the end of the bow, and the make a weird little quirky sound on the violin when the written note stops!!! [:D]
Your legato tool patches ARE fantastic. But there are no specific bow changes in the programming If you play a 30 seconds passage legato it sound great and natural, but you can't hear where the bow direction changes. And if I try to play like a violin player, e.g. 3 notes tied - 4 notes tied - 3 notes tied, making a small distance between the phrases, I will not get a realistic result, since the VI will make a soft start-up for every bow direction. Can you follow me? I'm not asking for distinct bow directions, but the way it works now has very little to do with reality...
When I posted the original post some months ago, I was writing on a film score for string quartet. It was so frustrating with these last notes stopping and then the weird release note coming on when the note went off.
And I assure you that doing the recording session with the quartet I did not ONE SINGLE TIME have any problems with the players "running out of bow".
I just ordered the "Solo Strings 2", looking forward to getting the sordino samples - but also the new legato with longer "last notes" (if I got the message right).
I can only ask you - if you think that the legato patches in Solo Strings 1 is realistic and that it is not possible to play longer notes in one bow, how have you produced the longer notes in Solo Strings 2? [;)]
After all this ranting I would like to tell you that I just finished another score, where we didn't have time to record with a real orchestra (and it was only 6-7 minutes of the score that was orchestral), so I did it using VSL and the films sound mixers where just amazed about how well it sounded. Even when used as the only sound element at loud volumes. [Y]
:-) Flemming Nordkrog
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Hi Nordkrog and Beat, First off thanks for returning to this issue... secondly, I'm so new to this and have only just started using my newly purchased first VSL library (SOLO STRINGS 1+2 extended) since yesterday. So chances are I am missing something. I totally understand both arguments being presented here. Of course as a composer it is good to be aware of bow length and the need to change direction as presented by Beat. However the issue I am having is that for my purposes (a composer now writing my third electroacoustic opera who is in the process of creating a high quality composing environment using VSL) I need VSL to be a tool for composition rather then performance. It is true that many of the decisions in VSL appear to be made with a lean towards realistic performance but in this situation I need VSL to prototype my music and then have real musicians perform the staged version. So it is a tool for me (not for my audience). So what I am now trying to do is create a series of matrices for the strings which will be able to handle the main playing styles so that I can compose as I have done in the past (using EXS Miroslav, MUM, Siedlaszek etc). Now in the past if I used a sustained violin patch in EXS then I could simply create very long notes in Logic and hit play and these would loop until that note finished. It seems (and this is where I may be wrong) that in VI I must start the note, then send CC64 and it will sustain. This should work on all patches which include the word 'Sustained'. But this does not always seem to be the case. This is particularly frustrating because as far as I can see "05 VI Short+Long notes" seems to be close to an ideal matrix for bread and butter Violin writing. Except it will NOT sustain for me despite claiming to do so when the Horizontal keyswitch is at D#1. True i could of course constantly retrigger the sustained note but this is not how most people compose. Invariably it should not be necessary to tell the violinist when to change bow direction as this can in most cases be left to the discretion of the performer. By the way much of what I've learnt about the above has been deduced from reading through the forums. The manual and videos really don't do justice to the complexity of the VSL system. Sorry for the length! Jurgen
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Nordkrog > Yes, I agree the second part of the solo violin legato sample could be a bit longer... The only thing I wanted to point out was, that it is not fault in general. I'm using string samples now since 2002. The exeperience is that playing music with samples was one big "being ready to compromise at any time". This makes the legato samples not longer in their secont part but I've always found a 2nd class-solution for certain situations... > where are the sad legatos? the shiny ones? where are the 3,3s diminuendos > we only have 3s and 4s dims...
So the sample technique is nothing for musicians so to say...
zentrumsounds > an addition to the upper text: If you have the case of a too short second legato part then start with the sustain sample. While playing this sustain note set the keyswitch for the legato articulation. With the start of the second note you will also get the typical "legato noise" and the second half of the legato sounds much longer because it is actual the first part of the legato sample... which seems to sound long enough...
Please have a look here http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/vitipstricks1/index.php#53248297b5030e502
6.1/6.2/6.3 > This trick will solve your problem
Beat Kaufmann
- Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
