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    @RedLeicester said:

    That's why you have car insurance - if someone steals your car, and you own the original sales invoice, get a police report, and then get all the CCTV footage of it being stolen, will Ford give you a new car....???

     

     This is, I think, apples and oranges comparison. A car is a large, complex physical object costing a great deal more to produce than a USB key.

    The logical issue is that VSL will replace, at nominal charge, a damaged USB key after examining the damaged key but apparently will not accept a certified police report of the theft of a USB key. However an official police report  is the criteria that an insurance company would use to justify reimbursement of an insured item that was stolen.

    While it is true that a person could,fraudulently, claim that their USB key was lost or stolen, no one need accept such an unsupported claim - - certainly no insurance company would. Only if there is an official police report of a theft that supports the claim will an insurance company reimburse the claim.

    In other words, an official police report is legally viewed as factual evidence that the claim is true in the same sense that examining a damaged object is evidence of it being damaged. VSL implicitly recognizes the fact that what is being replaced is a small, inexpensive, physical object by offering replacement of a damaged key for a nominal charge (a car company does not offer a replacement car for a nominal fee after you've smashed it up - - although they can examine it in detail), but apparently refuses to accept as factual evidence an official police investigation and report that declare the object to have been stolen. This does not quite make sense. To differentiate between these two circumstances would require believing in a possible conspiracy involving members of police anti-burglary units around the world and VSL users - - a conspiracy aimed at creating an illicit market in Vienna Keys. Of course anything is possible, but the statistical probability of such a conspiracy would, I think, be similar to that of being hit on the head by a meteorite. (It could happen!!)
  • cmC
    VSL Team
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    it is easy to make an application *phone home* - but AFAIK this is something we all don't like too much and would be simply useless for an audio workstation seperated from the internet ...

     

    what can be done is to lock a key for further license transfers (license server denies access).

    some time ago i brought into the discussion if a method would be thinkable to delete all licenses from *blacklisted* keys at next contact, but on one hand this method would be rarely efficient and on the other hand i'd rather feel more safe and secure to initiate any license transfer by myself than allowing some server to push or pull something to/from my private sphere.

     

    so another time it appears to be easier ranting about what can't be done than to consider side effects for what could be done ...

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @Another User said:

    so another time it appears to be easier ranting about what can't be done than to consider side effects for what could be done ...


    There is much that can be done, and that's what I'm "ranting" about, if you want to call it that. There is a complex system in place already, but that system is geared only toward protecting the software company, with little or no regard for the end-user. To me, that seems absolutely wrong - speaking plainly, I find it insulting. Both the software company and the end-user are, ultimately, paying the salaries at Syncrosoft... In fact, since the software company wouldn't exist without the end-user, it's really the end-users who are paying all the salaries, all round the table. It follows that the needs of the end-user should figure highly in all this.

    As far as "side-effects" go, I'd rather allow Syncrosoft to check my key occasionally, when connected to a new machine, than be out several thousand dollars for a lost or stolen key. And besides, there's no reason the process would have to be covert, in any way. If the hardware address stored in the key didn't match the connected hardware, it could launch the License Control Centre and go from there. Totally out in the open...

    J.
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    I think this issue is providing so much traffic because of the success of VSL. As the library expands the financial investment (ooh that contentious word again!) increases. So the total cost of the licences stored on a USB key becomes many times the average. By it's nature a USB key is both fragile and potentially easy to misplace during travels, or be acquired by someone else without permission. No one here appears to be arguing VSL's right to protect it's business model or intellectual property there just seem to be growing concerns about the possibility of loosing the licences then having no planned way to re-obtain them without further, potentially considerable expense. Julian
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    Last time I traveled I just put the key in the luggage without even thinking what I was risking.

    The next time I fly I will strap it to my body.

    But, seriously, with the system as sophisticated as Synchrosoft, isn't there a way to disable/disconnect/terminate (you pick the word) the licenses on the lost or stollen key?

    As far as the analogy with the car or the mixing board, the actual car or the board would have to be reproduced from scratch and it makes sense to reimburse the company for that. In case of licensing it's just reissuing the authorization numbers.

  • cmC
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    @sasha said:

    But, seriously, with the system as sophisticated as Synchrosoft, isn't there a way to disable/disconnect/terminate (you pick the word) the licenses on the lost or stollen key?

    also seriously: how should that happen except as described here (less seriously)

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    also seriously: how should that happen except as described here (less seriously)

    ???

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    @sasha said:

    also seriously: how should that happen except as described here (less seriously)


    hehe... that's pretty creepy! šŸ˜‰ They could extend that by making a 3G-based "self destruct" command! That'll teach those pirates. Arrrrr...

    But I already mentioned a perfectly valid and simple way to prevent someone using a key with licenses that have been invalidated: keep the hardware address on the key, and launch the License Control Centre if that address disagrees with the connected hardware, requiring a quick "verification" of the user's licenses. Not a big deal, really. It doesn't need to be invasive in any way, since the key would be given the hardware address by the License Control Centre in the first place - nothing would happen without the user's knowledge.
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    Always remember -:

    We take INSURANCE against something that MIGHT happen.

    We take out ASSURANCE against something that WILL happen.

    ;)
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    @sasha said:

    But, seriously, with the system as sophisticated as Synchrosoft, isn't there a way to disable/disconnect/terminate (you pick the word) the licenses on the lost or stollen key?

    also seriously: how should that happen except as described here (less seriously)

    Well, we had that CD license scheme which had to renew the license from time to time. That could be done with a dongle as well, but it might need a customer account like iLok has it. each 6 month the licenses on the dongle would have to renew - you get 3 weeks to connect to the server and renew the licenses, otherwise they will get deactivated. As you know the dongle-ID etc. it would be easy to not renew licenses on dongles that are blacklisted (of course before the server has to make sure that the licenses from blacklisted dongles cannot be transfered to other dongles.) So this would be a question of how fast one can blacklist a dongle. I do not know if the licenses can be blacklisted themselves - that would make more sense than blacklisting the dongle. This way the server would not delete anything actively ..... maybe ....
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    @jbm said:

    But I already mentioned a perfectly valid and simple way to prevent someone using a key with licenses that have been invalidated: keep the hardware address on the key, and launch the License Control Centre if that address disagrees with the connected hardware, requiring a quick "verification" of the user's licenses. Not a big deal, really. It doesn't need to be invasive in any way, since the key would be given the hardware address by the License Control Centre in the first place - nothing would happen without the user's knowledge.
    +1 I'm so afraid to lose my precious dongle or it's get stolen :-(
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    @PaulR said:

    We take INSURANCE against something that MIGHT happen.

    We take out ASSURANCE against something that WILL happen.


    šŸ˜Š

    Yeah, maybe not a great choice of words on my part... I wanted to avoid saying "insurance", in order to differentiate what I was talking about from the "insurance" that carries a price tag. Anyway, I did mean to say a few posts ago (in a message I deleted half-way through) that I'm not particularly worried about my Vienna Keys, personally. I've already moved 1/3 of the way across the planet without issue, and I'd generally say I'm about as likely to *lose* them as I am to lose my computer. Not very likely! However, as Tanuj emphasizes, it's the mechanism of the whole thing, and the skewed notion of value, that throw me off. All this value being placed in the key, with no inherent protection for the end-user, is just very uncomfortable. And the fact that this is a software "security" system makes the whole thing even more confusing and unsettling. Such a system should be able to provide a *better* solution, for all parties, than exists for the loss or theft of hardware.

    J.
  • cmC
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    @steff3 said:

    but it might need a customer account like iLok has it. each 6 month the licenses on the dongle would have to renew

    AFAIK it is no problem designing licenses to expire after 6 months, but this is what has intentionally not been done.

    i personally would not like to update 20+ licenses every 6 months - this might be practicable for a single PT license though ...

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @steff3 said:

    but it might need a customer account like iLok has it. each 6 month the licenses on the dongle would have to renew

    AFAIK it is no problem designing licenses to expire after 6 months, but this is what has intentionally not been done.

    i personally would not like to update 20+ licenses every 6 months - this might be practicable for a single PT license though ...

    christian

    - I would also not like to - but - as a user and customer - I would also not like to use a dongle or pay a lot in case the licenses get lost or stolen ..... The whole dongle is a trade off - so, and so it is not only the question of what is practical, but of what is the less unpleasant ..... IMHO.... best
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     The question that, as far as I can see, remains unanswered, is why an official police report of a theft would not be regarded by VSL as factual evidence of theft - - as this is precisely the thing that insurance companies accept as facual evidence in the same circumstance. (I certainly hope my Vienna Key is never stolen - - and doubt that any average burglar would think to steal the various anonymous looking dongles plugged into my USB hub which is at some dstance from my computer.)
  • cmC
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    @stevesong said:

    The question that, as far as I can see, remains unanswered, is why an official police report of a theft would not be regarded by VSL as factual evidence of theft

    you may have overlooked one of my first replies - send us a respective notification and it will be handled case-by-case

    hth, christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    Had my first near heart attack today with my dongle.  Went to pull out my credit card to pay for my gas at the pump and out came my vienna key flying through the air and smashed into the concrete.  Cracked all around the edges of the USB connector and a small one up the middle of the body.  I won't know if it's going to work for another few hours so I have been sitting and stirring all day.  Let's hope.  On a positive note, Vienna Ensemble 3 is one of the coolest apps I have ever used.  It's been doing me really well at my studio and hasn't crashed on me yet.  I don't use it on my mobile recordings and gigs yet but perhaps one day.  I still have a lot to learn on it before I can ditch my current stuff.

    Maestro2be
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     You guys may concider me crazy, but I think the present license protection scheme VSL uses is quite alright compared to that of NI someone was praising in this thread. Talk to NI software users, ask them how it feels when after you've checked your license out of your computer you will NEVER be able to install it on the same computer again. Ask them how it feels when after you've purchased your product it turns out that the license control center supplied on the software CD doesn't actually work and you have to turn NI's website upside down just to find an update for it in the most hidden and remote part of the website, protected by all kinds of keys and codes. 

    Well, after all these problems can be solved being just the matter of technical realization,  but do you understand the worst thing about this kind of protection is that every time I  install my software SOMEBODY ELSE IS GOING TO DECIDE WHETHER I CAN USE IT ON MY COMPUTER OR NOT.

    You know,after I paid my hard earned money for my software , I prefer to be free to decide WHEN to use it and ON WHICH MACHINE without getting a permission every time. I can suffer being extra careful with my dongle as a downside of this freedom. I think as VSL users we've come to take this freedom for granted and forgot that its absence can be much worse.

    Michael. 

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    I don't think you're crazy at all, everyone is entitled their own opinion on any subject matter.  However I myself have never experienced any of the problems on NI that you mention.  I have never once hit those hurdles and have installed it on the same computers many times as I have changed OS's, or upgraded or decided to use Windows on a bootcamp partition.  I cannot attest to the steps you've taken in the past as I wasn't sitting there to watch but I have every setup that I do for my studio documented to the exact step by step as to how to correctly install every package I own and run.   have without flaw been able to re-install or move my software around without any glitches (Sibelius, Kontakt, Garritan Products, Vienna Products).

    I also don't think anyones taking it for granted, I know I am certainly not.  The issues do not revolve around the ability to move from one computer to another within a studio because the dongle works perfectly for this.  The true problem lies in the fragileness of the component resposible for making that happen.  The idea alone that losing the dongle (there are many fine examples of how that could happen in this thread) could mean that you will be re-purchasing your entire library is NOT a stomach settling feeling.

    I can say however that lately I have been breathing easier everyday because I have yet to have one bad experience from this company (Vienna).  I always get responses when I need them and the products are just out of this world good in my opinion.  Therefore, I choose to not continue the my own personal negative rant on this subject because the fact is we as humans for the most part jump to the worst negative assumption before it ever even gets a chance at resolution.  I still have a fear of losing it, but much less fear of how Vienna will take care of me should that happen.

    Besides, I haven't ever read one post on any forum yet that was cussing out Vienna for not taking care of them from a lost dongle.  I myself will wait until that day happens (if ever) and see how they decide to handle it with me before I jump to conclusions.

    Maestro2be
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    This is of course a Syncrosoft issue moreso than a Vienna issue, as was probably noted. But still, I agree with many people. I safeguard my dongle pretty closely. At least if it's damaged, there is a good possibility of having the licenses restored. But if it's lost, that's where the trouble starts.

    If you lose your car keys, you don't have to buy a new car. Why do we have to live in fear with these stupid USB keys? It just feels so unnerving to think that Syncrosoft (more than iLok) is so loose-footed on this subject.

    I did a bit of research on this months ago comparing Synco and iLok, and I'll post it here for everyone:

    Theft or Loss

    iLok will issue you temporary licenses via the RMA process only if you've purchased Zero Downtime coverage. But unlike an iLok that is only damaged, when one is lost they cannot verify the contents of it. So they will not replace the licenses, it is up to each individual software vendor to re-issue you licenses for your products. No further action is taken from ilok.com other than the ZDT temporary licenses. However, iLok.com can verify to the vendors that the old iLok and licenses have been suspended. It is not mentioned in the FAQ that purchasing insurance from a 3rd party would be a suggested option.

    Syncrosoft FAQ states: "The Steinberg USB Key containing the product licenses represents the entire value of the products. . . You are solely responsible for the USB key and the contained licenses. If you lost your key the only solution is to buy the products/licenses again. Keep your USB key safe! This requires purchasing new products/licenses. However, you can try to manage this by an insurance policy for compensation. This requires that the USB key is covered by the policy and we recommend including theft of the key (and the licenses) into a maybe already existing insurance contract."


    Physical Damage Or Inoperability

    iLok has a centralized website and database where you can view and manage your iLok keys. In the event of damage, you can initiate an RMA process where you send them the key, they check it, then re-issue you replacement licenses. To expedite this process, they offer a Zero Downtime service that will provide you temporary interim licenses in the meantime. iLok covers the replacement cost within the first year of purchase of the key, under warranty.

    Syncrosoft has no user-accessible centralized database. They direct the user to "contact the distributor" in the event of physical damage or cease of function. Their FAQ states: "Please contact your national distributor. You need to buy a new empty Steinberg USB key. Your distributor will ask you for the USB key number which is readable through the transparent housing and will most likely want to have the key sent to them. They will care about providing you with replacement licenses for the empty USB key you have bought." So it appears that you should be covered if the key breaks. But they do not mention what costs may be involved, or how long this process can take.


    Destroyed by Fire or Environmental Disaster

    iLok's FAQ does not comment on this contingency.

    Syncrosoft advises "Please contact your national distributor. It is up to them how to proceed in such cases. You possibly have disastrous events covered by an insurance policy to get a compensation for buying new products. Also a document or report from police for fire dept. can be of help."

    Links

    iLok FAQ: https://www.ilok.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/iLokManager.woa/wa/namedPage?page=FAQPage

    Syncrosoft FAQ: ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/General_Documents/General_Info_And_USB-Key_FAQ_EN.pdf