The gig should have gone to Mike.

Kind words, guys - you too, William... thanks!

I'm highly suspicious of the new Star Trek "score."  It is true I am not a fan of Giacchino's work; I think if you need 30 great seconds, call Giacchino, but I honestly don't believe he knows what to do after that.  His long-form chops are severely lacking, in my opinion, and true symphonic sensibility - the idea of an entire score unfolding as a 90+ minute suite - is a necessary hallmark of all the greats.  But this score was suspiciously poor.  He's way better than that.  I would almost cry "ghost written," but there's no way he was too busy on another project to phone in a major franchise "event" movie like that...  I honestly don't know.  Knowing how perverse the film business is these days, I try to give everyone in creative the benefit of the doubt, but the score basically doesn't belong in the lineage at all.  Horner kicked complete ass at 33 years old with WOK, and Goldsmith's original is, well, genius.  I really don't know what happened.  I'd be nervous as hell, too, if I got the Star Trek call, but you gotta step up, you know? 

I'm really at a loss.  What a great gig, too. 

_Mike

P.S. Yes, I too don't understand why he insists on taking other's perfectly good themes and just slapping random string glissandos on them.  Especially the original theme for Star Trek, which is such fun to use.  I mean, how about just a little nod when Kirk first takes the Big Chair?  Anything?  Ah, well...

The main theme which was used in the new film was strangely wrong and inappropriate.  It was not soaring at all.  It was completely static mass of sound.  How could someone create that for Star Trek??!!

I hated James Horner's trite score for WOK, with the pathetic cliche of arpeggiated augmented triads for "SPACE" and the total ripoff of the Prokofieff "Alexander Nevsky" MAIN MOTIF of the Germans.  That is something that James Horner specializes in.  Total fucking ripoffs.  Astoundingly plagiaristic composer.   Some that come to mind:  Willow - a rewrite of the first movement main theme from Schumann's Third Symphony.  It is exactly the same, except with fanfares added.  Humanoids of the Deep - a rewrite of Ive's Unanswered Question.  Sorceresses - a rewrite of not only notes but ORCHESTRATION of Shostakovich's 5th 2nd movement.  These are not mere influences, such as you might have with John Williams who is an expert and very knowledgable composer/conductor who understandably is influenced by the great composers he loves. With Horner, it is conscious, coldly calculated plagiarism.  And BTW those are only examples that I happened to notice while watching the movies - I have no idea of how many others  might exist. I have a feeling an entire catalogue could be compiled.

Though on the subject of Jerry Goldsmith's score to the first film, despite the film's occasional clunkiness it may be the greatest orchestration AND film score ever written.   It is intensely imaginative and vivid writing, with the most heroic main theme since Korngold.  I defy anyone to write something that great.  I was thinking the other day about who influenced the two great film composers - Jerry Goldsmith and Berrnard Herrmann.  Part of the reason was I was listening to Vaughn Williams 6th Symphony.  The last movement is all pianissimo, an eerie sound depicting a lifeless landscape, and is obviously an influence of Goldsmith's score sections depicting the huge alien spacecraft.  But Goldsmith, being the original composer he was, did not steal but simply couldn't help be influenced.  Just as Herrmann was highly influenced by Holst and Rachmaninoff, in both his vivid orchestrational approach and his lyrical romantic quality.  

I'm certainly no apologist for Horner's blatant plagiarism; however, when I saw WOK, I didn't know how derivative it was, only that I loved the music, and the film.  Easily my favorite Horner score, which isn't saying much, in the end.

My criticisms of Giacchino's music - his pathological dependence on ostinato figures as a substitute for any developed subject, for example - are musical fact, not opinion.  Even a cursory analysis of the work, structurally, reveals it to be so.  You may like it anyway, but it is what it is.  The quality of film music is not somehow magically disconnected from the raw musicality (or lack thereof) inherent in the structure, orchestration, and execution, and these are readily comparable and evident on paper.  Browsing through a Goldsmith score, it is plain to see its mastery, having not heard a note.  Browsing through a Giacchino score...

In any case, listen to what you like, support who you want; you don't have to apologize for the music that moves you.  If it's Giacchino's, I'd say congratulations; there's likely to be much more of that in the future.

_Mike

fantastic!

Vibrato, you are right about Herrmann and Ives. He was a great champion of the music of Ives.  Though I have to admit I don't see much influence from the actual content of Ives' music on Herrmann.   

I agree also on not being harsh on other composers and don't want to be generally.  Except in the case of Horner because of his true plagiarisms - and this plagiarist has been rewarded with an Oscar!  That burns me up.   He is stealing from real creators of music, and that is a different situation from just being influenced.  But in the end he will be found out by history.  Because what is the actual content of what he created?  SOMEONE ELSE'S MUSIC.  Not his own.  What did he create? 

There is another person right on this Forum - not in this thread, but elsewhere in the Forum -  who is a conscious plagiarist just like Horner.  He recycles music.  He can give you a little Elfman, a little Arvo Part, some Herrmann, some Goldsmith, some Korngold or whatever you want.  BUT WHAT THE HELL IS HIS OWN MUSIC????  WHAT IS HE?  WHAT IS HIS SOUL?  A COPY OF SOMEONE ELSE?  

Of course I am sometimes nervous about accidentally stealing music, because today if you do tonal music - even if you do certain kinds of atonal music - there is already so much music that it is easy to do something that sounds like something else without stealing.  Also, drawing the line between plagiarism and influence is not always easy to do.  For example John Williams.  A classical musician  I knew said he stole everything, and the guy played excerpts of similar sounding music to prove it.  But it is not true in John Williams' case because his own style is instantly recognizable, and his main themes are his own even if sometimes he strays into the realms of the composers he loves such as Stravinsky or Tchaikovsky.  

It is similar oddly enough to the stiuation of J.S. Bach, who was NOT a hugely original innovator at all.  His music was fairly old-fashioned in his own day, and he was using conventions and alreaady-established musical patterns.  But he did so in a way that was so perfect that even today he is considered by many as the greatest composer of all time. 

@mverta said:

Browsing through a Goldsmith score, it is plain to see its mastery, having not heard a note.  Browsing through a Giacchino score...

Regarding Horner borrowing from classic works, must-hear podcast about this (iTunes link): http://snurl.com/lfmfe

I get a message saying "the item requested is not availble in the US Store."

What country are you in Jeff?

I'm in the USA. I had trouble pasting an itunes link on this board.

Go on the iTunes store, look at Podcasts, then search for the Film Score Monthly podcast. Then download the "Opportunity makes a Thief" episode. I'll try one more time to past the link:

iTunes Link

Your link worked this time.  And thanks for that, I didn't know about this podcast.

Very cool!  Great analysis and so many wonderful examples.

Quote:

"Horner's score for Glory was deemed inelligible [for an Oscar] because of classical influences"

Yes, the finale to "Glory" is very similar to "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis."