@William said:

 Anger? What anger?  This is me being nice.  [...] 

May I please ask all participants in this discussion to stick to a friendly tone and to avoid getting even _close_ to personal attacks. Thanks a lot for your understanding.

Kind regards,

 Hi Mike,

Just want to say that I have followed this thread with interest - I have not read all of the posts yet though - but out of curiosity I decided to go to your site, and I was just knocked out by your music and your demo's. Truly amazing! I think I downloaded nearly every mp3 demo on your site as they are not only great to listen to, but they are full of good orchestration ideas.

Now, this is the one chance, if I get it, to ask a succesful composer for films like yourself some questions. [if that's OK].

1. Listening to the Batman track that goes with the ride, I noticed the orchestration was not only pretty amazingly wonderful [well, marvelous actually].

.. were you able, or are you able, as a film composer that is, access to the actual orchestral score by Danny Elfman? Well, I'm guessing that the rights for the use of the Batman theme may also possibly give you access to the score by Danny Elfman - so, are you, lets say, if you are composing for a Warner Company film, and you want a specific orchestration effect that you liked in a certain film that was done by Warner Company - does that mean you can acess the actual score for that film to see how it was done to help you orchestrate the sound you need?

It's just that  I am guessing that film composers and orchestraters for film may be able to access many movie scores that many of us not in that business would be able to - am I correct thinking this?

2. Your orchestration  skills are obviously bowling us over in this thread, including myself. How did you aquire such great skllls in this area? Besides the obvious fact that you were already extremely gifted musically and also had a very strong aural memory and the ability to be creative and have the imagination for orchestral sounds in your mind before you started -  was  there any course of study you did that helped improve and or add to these skills? Special scores you studied? Seminars attended such as the Smalley Seminars?  Equal Interval System Training? Obviously nothing beats learning orchestration as actually doing it, and being gifted in this area before starting out as you are, but I suppose I am asking what you feel has been the most important influence on your skills in this area.

3. As a matter of interest to us composers/orchestrators, I notice that more and more of the John Williams scores are available, and I've brought quite of few of them. Are there any particular scores in  the realm of classical/romantic/20th century concert music that has been a big influence on your orchestration?

I hope that you don't mind me asking the questions and that you get the time/chance to answer.

best regards,

Steve Martin.

Brisbane, Australia. [:D]

Hi Steve -  Thanks so much for the kind words... 

In regards to the Batman Ride score:  Six Flags/WB MovieWorld had paid Warner Bros. Pictures the licensing fee to use that theme long before I came aboard, (I actually replaced a composer they were not happy with), and I was initially hesitant to use it because, well, it's Danny's. But they'd paid for it, and wanted to get their money's worth, so that greatly influenced the sound of the rest of the score, because I wanted it to be cohesive.  They sent me the score for 1m1 - the Main Title theme, and I used it pretty much as-is for a short section near the top of the ride.  One change I made immediately, though, was to drop 2 of the Horns (it was written for 6).  My engineer, Shawn Murphy, had previously helped clean up the original Batman soundtrack which had a lot of issues with it, and the horns were especially unwieldly and problematic because they were just blasting unnaturally/disproportionally.  I'm not sure what motivated the 6 horns, as it was still written for 4, with doubles, but I suspect all the ff and fff and ffff markings everywhere else were wreaking havoc with the balance.  In general, orchestras of that size record better about a dynamic marking to 2 dynamic markings quieter than you might think, which tends to make it more musical, gives you more dynamic headroom, and records better.  We didn't miss the two horns for one second, and had no balance issues otherwise.

My training is a mixture of utterly self-taught methods, tempered later in life by academic schooling.  What happened was that as a young boy, I was making up my own training regimen - just guessing, really - and by the time I got to college, the academic teaching helped organize the practical experience I already had.  I had the good fortune of going to a high school wtih 4 orchestras, 4 wind ensembles, 4 jazz bands, a swing choir, a bunch of other vocal groups, two pit orchestra groups, a synth ensemble and a recording studio, so I basically wrote something every day for friends or bands to play or sing.  I wrote competition pieces for soloists, or quartet/quintet stuff, or big band charts, jazz combo pieces; I wrote for the student musicals,  played in rock bands, etc.  Truth be told, I ditched a lot of my academic classes to hang out in the arts wing.  It was really a lot of trial and error, hands on, every day.But even before that I was doing a lot of composing on my own - I was basically expelled from the conservatory I studied classical piano at for 6 years because I kept changing the music - they sent me to learn jazz, which encouraged improvisation, and thank God for that. There were a ton of other things, too... lots of experiments playing at parties and studying the ways music influenced people consciously and unconsciously.  

About John Williams: he is the reason I'm a composer. His melodic sensibilites are remarkable, but you also don't have to dig very deep to hear exactly where he learned his "thing," and that's what I study. There are tons of pieces to mention, but pieces like William Schuman's Symphony No. 3 or Prokovief's Scythian Suite, or Vaughan Williams' Sinfonia Antartica are just dripping with higher-order manifestations of most of his favorite orchestral sounds.  I study film scores for the thing that makes them truly unique: their structure.  For the orchestrational study, I listen to repertoire pieces.  And of course, not just listen, but absorb, study, transcribe, re-arrange, re-harmonize, etc.  

In the end though, I'm just a typical Rimsky-Korsakov orchestrator, with French-School efficiency tendencies - the "less is more" philosophy.  I enjoy finding that full, rich sound that somehow looks deceptively simple on paper.  "That's IT?"   And more importantly, good orchestration is just part of the deal - I prefer to focus on what I'm doing harmonically and melodically.  Without those, it's just a lot of forgettable, pretty noise.

_Mike

 Hi Mike,

thanks for the answer. I find your statement  And more importantly, good orchestration is just part of the deal - I prefer to focus on what I'm doing harmonically and melodically.  Without those, it's just a lot of forgettable, pretty noise.

1. Voice leading

2. harmony and melody obviously.

Even though I did do these as part of my Education Studies - I trained to be a music specialist in high schools - I soon realized that these are very important , and if the voice leading/harmony/melody etc is  tight, a musical, a "good orchestration" has a much eaiser job of eventuating. As for myself, in my own study -  I am also revisiting lots of piano repertoire - Bach, and all of the other 18th to 20th orchestral repertoire and piano music, as I really feel you have to have a good "repertoire" of classical as well as modern examples of harmonies [Holst, Williams, Prokofieff etc etc etc], and their harmonic technique to draw on automatically. I am also studying various Harmony texts in great detail, as I feel that once I am secure in this area - orchestration of a piece of music is much easier and more effective if the original music shows good "composer" skills if you know what I mean. This is very time consuming for me of course, but I personally feel that this music plus the study of harmony etc, are very important- but as you say, without the emphasis on good harmony/melody, the orchestration can be just a lot of noise. I feel you are very right here.

It's interesting that you note the influence of Vaughn Williams on John Williams scores. I myself love V Williams music, and it's interesting that you note his influence on John Williams music.

Even today, when I look at the scoring of the first movement of Beethovens 5th,I am still amazed at the original and very clever orchestration ideas that Beethoven came up with.  Some of these classical composers really understood the orchestra as an instrument, and I am still in awe of Good old J.S. Bachs ability to make a small amount of instruments sound just magnificent through his handling of the harmony and counterpoint/voice leading etc..

I must admit that one thing that facinates me about your music is your harmony progressions, and use of melody. The harmonies/counterpoint/voiceleading/melodic lines of your music are just great.

thanks again for your answer Mike. Very, very illuminating on this topic.

best regards,

Steve!

@mverta said:

And more importantly, good orchestration is just part of the deal - I prefer to focus on what I'm doing harmonically and melodically.  Without those, it's just a lot of forgettable, pretty noise.

 

Hi Clemenshaas,

That's a good point, and Interestingly enough, Peter Alexander at Truespec sells a pdf booklet which shows Ravels original piano score for hims Mother Goose Suite, with Ravel's orchestration immediately above it, which also helps a orchestrator see Ravels choice of orchestration. 

best,

Steve.[:D]

I did try taking a picture, actually, and it sucked.  But I've actually taken this opportunity to buy a new scanner, a large-format Epson, and as soon as I'm done with a commission I'm working on, I'll scan a bit.

_Mike

 Yes, I have really appreciated Mike's open answers and his info he has shared. Seeing his website and reading this thread has inspired me to get back to score study and other related things. I'm another one who would love to get a peek at this score that has been discussed.

Thanks again Mike,

Steve[:D]

@Steve Martin said:

That's a good point, and Interestingly enough, Peter Alexander at Truespec sells a pdf booklet which shows Ravels original piano score for hims Mother Goose Suite, with Ravel's orchestration immediately above it, which also helps a orchestrator see Ravels choice of orchestration. 

@mverta said:

I did try taking a picture, actually, and it sucked.  But I've actually taken this opportunity to buy a new scanner, a large-format Epson, and as soon as I'm done with a commission I'm working on, I'll scan a bit.

 

_Mike

@clemenshaas said:

Hey Mike, did you do any orchestrations of classical repertoire? I would be very interested to see what you would do.

Nah, not really... not since college.  Because I was self-trained initially, I didn't come from a traditional "explode the piano sketch" point of view; I have always viewed orchestration and composition as intrinsically linked, so I compose orchestrated.  I can do it, but it feels like writing with my toes.  I always do better work when I conceive the music in its final form, orchestrationally.  Obviously, I can re-arrange and re-orchestrate, but I don't actually like it that much.  That's part of why this Star Trek theme is totally re-harmonized: straight re-orchestration is kind of boring, I feel.  Good practice, yes; good to be able to do, yes...  

_Mike

@mverta said:

straight re-orchestration is kind of boring, I feel.  Good practice, yes; good to be able to do, yes...  

Hi Mike,

i listened a few months ago to your score for the "forbidden warrior" movie.

What a really pleasant music.

I liked the dark moments;

any strings and brass parts too a lot.

But oh my god the sound...

oh the recording...

the recording and mixing are so impressive.

I ' ve recently upgraded my monitors and converters... i am speechless.

It sounds so smooth,

the depth, the wideness... oh the precision of each instrument in the stereo field.

warm yet crystal clear.

It sounds like the orchestra is supended in the air like " the audio hanging gardens of Babylone".

Who contributed as sonic architects and which tools they used to create this beauty ?

Best regards.

Laurent

@mverta said:

About John Williams: he is the reason I'm a composer. His melodic sensibilites are remarkable, but you also don't have to dig very deep to hear exactly where he learned his "thing," and that's what I study. There are tons of pieces to mention, but pieces like William Schuman's Symphony No. 3 or Prokovief's Scythian Suite, or Vaughan Williams' Sinfonia Antartica are just dripping with higher-order manifestations of most of his favorite orchestral sounds.  I study film scores for the thing that makes them truly unique: their structure.  For the orchestrational study, I listen to repertoire pieces.  And of course, not just listen, but absorb, study, transcribe, re-arrange, re-harmonize, etc.  

In the end though, I'm just a typical Rimsky-Korsakov orchestrator, with French-School efficiency tendencies - the "less is more" philosophy.  I enjoy finding that full, rich sound that somehow looks deceptively simple on paper.  "That's IT?"   And more importantly, good orchestration is just part of the deal - I prefer to focus on what I'm doing harmonically and melodically.  Without those, it's just a lot of forgettable, pretty noise.

Hi Mike, 

just to let you know that I have researched and found so far the score to Vaughn Willaims Sinfonia Antartica and I've also downloaded the music from my membership with the emusic site. Fantastic Orchestration! Wow! I'm also soon to download the Schuman Symphony no 3 and also the Scythian Suite by Prokofiev from emusic also.

In listening to the Antartica symph, I was struck by the immense imagination and sheer power of the orchestration. Excellent model for all the types of orchestration where you want big sweeping melodies and yet the contrasting delicacy he achieves in one particular area of the Scherzo. I did procure the score, and I will see if I can do this for the others. I also came across the Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances score in our Local State Library also, and downloaded from emusic the tracks. These more recent 20th century scores have opened my eyes to the wealth of orchestration techniques these composers came up with, and there just seems to be a virtual treasure trove of orchestral technique ideas in these.

Thanks again for the mention of these composers Mike. If you have anymore works you know of - please mention them. You have started me on a very interesting  journey  here.

best,

Steve.

I agree the Vaughn Williams Antarctica is a great orchestration.  It has been imitated by many film composers.  Of course it originally was a film score, for Scott of the Antarctic.  He later made it into the 7th symphony.  Vaughn Williams in general is responsible - along with Holst in The Planets - for most of modern film orchestration, along with Rachmaninoff in the piano concerti and Isle of the Dead (which you really ought to check out if you haven't already - incredible orchestration as well as themes) for the more espressivo styles.  John Williams is probably most influenced by Vaughn Williams, Holst, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Richard Strauss and Stravinsky (a couple passages from Star Wars are very similar to The Rite of Spring and the Lois Lane theme from Superman is a re-write of the main theme of Strauss' first tone poem.)   That is not to say he is a plagiarist like James Horner, but rather he is so knowledgable that he is highly influenced by a lot of great music.  But his own styule is unmistakeable, even if he is influenced by many composers which he is familiar with.

Anyway I am a big Vaughn Williams fan also.  You ought to check out the Ninth Symphony, which has a more subtle but beautiful orchestration that includes three saxes and a flugelhorn, the 8th which has a second movement that is winds alone and third movement that is strings alone and a fourth movement with a huge compliment of percussion (including as Vaughn Williams said "all the 'phones and 'spiels known to the composer"), the 6th which has a quiet last movement that rivals Holst's Neptune for its eerie, metaphysical quality, and above all, the awesome Symphony in f minor, which is his most dissonant work and extremely powerful.  That last movement uses a variation of B-A-C-H for the main theme, but transformed into a violent frenzy of dissonance.

Thinking about other composers who are influential on filmmusic is interesting - you ought to listen to Varese's Ameriques.  It is a very powerful dissonant piece that is behind a lot of "suspense" or "horror" type film music.   I agree with mverta about William Schumann being a very interesting composer.  But also, from another era entirely, Robert Schumann with his intensely romantic symphonies has been extremely influential on film scoring. The egregious plagiarist I mentioned, the vastly overrated James Horner, stole directly his main theme for "Willow" from Schumann's 3rd symphony first movement.  But that is another story...

You know a composer you might love?  Sylvester Revueltas.  A mexican composer who is not well known, but his Sensamaya, a violent and dissonant work in 7/8, is probably in the running for single greatest orchestration of the latter 20th century.  Certainly one of the best.  And as usual, highly influential among film composers.

.

 Yes, Thanks William for the info.  I'm now getting into the emusic site and look some of these things up.

Thanks again, 

Steve.

 By the way, I also came across a link to  Marco Beltrami'swebsite, and he also gives free pdf files to some of his orchestrations, with also mp3's to these also.

The link is:

http://www.marcobeltrami.com/wocms.php?siteID=7&lngID=1

Steve.