Dear community

I’d like to add some final words regarding the upgrade pricing calculations, hopefully this is helpful for a better understanding of the whole situation.

The discussion is always based on the statement of “not paying twice for the same samples”.
“Same samples” means samples which are used a second time in a upgrade product, where we didn’t invest any additional manpower to produce these samples for the new product.

This worked very well going from First Edition to Pro Edition on the same platforms.
The already existing sample base was more or less copy & pasted for the new products.
But it never worked changing to Vienna Instruments.

We didn’t have to record the existing samples once again, but most of the database was completely reedited, especially the complex database of the performance samples (legatos and repetitions).
You have to know that the editing manpower  is 10 times higher that the recording manpower.
That means, for 1 hour recording audiodata you have to invest 10 hours and sometimes much more to get the samples ready.
Other additional costs  are the software developement, all the mapping doing from scretch, and quality testing, which was an enormous task for the VIs.

Finally you get a calculation of costs about the value of each sample in a certain product,
and the result was, only 10% of the developement costs of Pro Edition and Horizon products could be added into the producing costs of the Symphonic Cube.

In other words the correct mercandile calculation “of the same samples “ in the Symphonic Cube is only 900 Euros for Pro Edition user (including all relevant Horizon products).

That’s  terrifying less, and I expected that our user base would have been very annoyed if we have offered only 900 Euros discount (instead of 4000 – 5000 Euros)

So we decided to give as much discount as possible as long as possible, even this is heavely divergent to the correct commercial calculation.

Now you could argue, that VSL is so expensive, that this fact shouldn’t matter.
Generally the production costs of any library depends on the volume of the library, how much manpower ist invested to produce it. If you compare the sample price ration of our products to other companies products you will see, that our calculation is very, very tight.
There is not much margin, especially considering and adding these large discounts.

When we decided to discontinue the Sample Library products, it was clear that the “wrong” discount system has to be discontinued also sometimes in the future. One solution could have been to lower the discounts step by step (which I didn’t prefer) or to keep the discounts to a certain point of time and offering a grace period with some extra bonus.

best
Herb

Thanks Herb. Few company bosses would bother to provide such a detailed explanation. I sympathise with the complainants, but would say in VSL's defence that at least they've given a few month's notice on their new upgrade policy. At the end of the day, the interests of the customer and those of the seller are not identical, and the issues raised here illustrate that very well. Can I also congratulate most posters on the civilised tone and consideration for others' points of view they've managed to achieve even while radically disagreeing with each other!

@Fred Story said:

Herb, A detailed, thoughtful response. Thank you for taking time to make the explanation. I wouldn't begin to question your calculations. (Even if I thought it was appropriate, I wouldn't know how.) But given the relative cost of the product, and the fact that your customer base isn't exactly a wealthy lot, I still think some more time would be in order. If you had announced this a year ago, and given us 12 months - I doubt you would have received this kind of reaction. While I'm still not thrilled that you've essentially changed the deal after my purchase (technical arguments to the contrary notwithstanding), it's mostly the suddenness of the move which has taken me aback. I REALLY want to do the upgrade. I just don't think I can do it within the next six months. Given the circumstances, I don't think 12 months is an unreasonable extension. So I'll ask straight out - would you consider extending the current upgrade offer to 12 months?

Our sales departement will contact you.

best

Herb

@Mobius said:

[quote=Marsdy]

Apart from the fact that this VSL ad does say that the VIP offer will last a "lifetime", I also note that it uses the word "investment" (which some on this board have suggested is incorrect!).

Contact Fred and not the rest of us?????

Also, allow me to point out that Herb's response does conflict with the initial explanations that were offered regarding this change, and further, I am sure we all sympathize with all the brainstorming and development that has gone into these fine instruments and engines, however, what about the work that we have put into generating the initial €5000 in order to purchase the original product? And the other €5000 to upgrade?... Is our work and money less important?

And please read the poster! Since when crossgrading (because that is what we are talking about and that is what Herb implied) costs as much as buying the product from scratch?..

Please answer Fred and myself here, or please advise me that your sales department will also get in touch with me.

Thank you for your consideration,

Sincerely,

Errikos. 

Herb, maybe we can consider it "water under the bridge" if you give us back 30% of our "investmnent"?

Herb, hopefully you're still watching here. I can see we're going to get nowhere with asking you to change your mind. I have to say I'm still not happy - the simple fact is that you have changed an agreement, and your posts here do contradict themselves in the reasoning you give.

But to be pragmatic. I have a wife who has said I may use a credit card to take advantage of the upgrades now, but, since my trust is a little dented I have a couple of questions.

1. As you resplit the collection into individual instruments are all the current large VIs going to continue to exist? For instance, if I get the whole symphonic cube now, and later want to add the Standard and Extended Appassionata Strings, is it going to turn out that you've actually dissolved them, and split the strings completely differently. Will I have to buy an individual violins library that contains the Appassionata violins, but also forces me to re-buy the violin articulations I already have, and then an individual viola library, etc? Will I still be able to buy the special brass, or will I have to rebuy each instrument to get the additional articulations for that instrument?

2. As I understand it, the large VI collections contain all the articulations currently available, and the SE are smaller subsets. Now that you seem to be focussing on the SE customers, are you going to add articulations to the SE that aren't in the larger collections, so that we again have to buy some overlapping content to get at everything?

Thanks

David

@magates said:

Herb, maybe we can consider it "water under the bridge" if you give us back 30% of our "investmnent"?

Hmm, Matt may be onto something here.  What if a blanket upgrade coupon were issued to existing first edition, pro edition, and horizon VIP owners who can't take advantage of the upgrade program before the deadline.  Something simple like - receive discounts up to a maximum of 30% of your original purchase price when you upgrade, but no more than 20% per product.  Something universal, that is simple to track, but does not have to be re-calculated, changed, and massaged as the product line evolves.  It's constant, simple, and will expire once upgrade discounts total 30% of the customers purchase price (which will help to avoid conflicts with new upgrade paths).  Of course the numbers are completely fictional, but I think the idea is clear.

I'd go a step further and replace the existing and future VIP program with something like the following:

Level 1 discount: Anyone who has purchased the VI SE or two or more VIs or Horizon series products gets 10% off all future purchases

Level 2 discount: Anyone who has purchased 5 or more VIs or Horizon series products gets 20% off all future purchases

Level 3 discount: Anyone who has purchased 10 or more VIs or the Pro edition gets 30% off all future purchases

Applies to all existing and future customers for any product sold by VSL. 

@Pingu said:

Herb, hopefully you're still watching here. I can see we're going to get nowhere with asking you to change your mind. I have to say I'm still not happy - the simple fact is that you have changed an agreement, and your posts here do contradict themselves in the reasoning you give.

But to be pragmatic. I have a wife who has said I may use a credit card to take advantage of the upgrades now, but, since my trust is a little dented I have a couple of questions.

1. As you resplit the collection into individual instruments are all the current large VIs going to continue to exist? For instance, if I get the whole symphonic cube now, and later want to add the Standard and Extended Appassionata Strings, is it going to turn out that you've actually dissolved them, and split the strings completely differently. Will I have to buy an individual violins library that contains the Appassionata violins, but also forces me to re-buy the violin articulations I already have, and then an individual viola library, etc? Will I still be able to buy the special brass, or will I have to rebuy each instrument to get the additional articulations for that instrument?

2. As I understand it, the large VI collections contain all the articulations currently available, and the SE are smaller subsets. Now that you seem to be focussing on the SE customers, are you going to add articulations to the SE that aren't in the larger collections, so that we again have to buy some overlapping content to get at everything?

Thanks

David

1) All large collections will continue to exist.

New DVD collections will be added, like the Chambers Strings II.

2) We will not offer exclusively articulations for smaller subsets.

There will be completely new download instruments, which are not part of any DVD collections, like our Upright Bass.

But here you won't have any overlapping content problems.

Generally we will avoid to repackage our sample content, the datasize and therefore the mastering costs are astronomical in the meantime.

best

Herb

1) Fred Story, I know you were making a general enquiry, I was surprised that Herb wished to take the matter privately since we are all on similar boats here,

2) Matt Gates' idea is probably what VSL should have come up with in the first, or at least second place. I have to add my impressions however (to include Fred's suggestion):

           a) Pro Edition COP customers keep their full 50% discount for 12 months since the first announcement of the demise of VIP a few days ago, and from then on to drop to a permanent 30%,

           b) the rest of the discounts as previously suggested...

3) There is still time for VSL to withdraw this recent ultimatum and consider a solution to their problem - whatever it may really be - which will be concordant with their hitherto projected paradigm.

Good luck everyone,

Errikos. 

 Herb:

Thanks very much for participating actively and being forthcoming in this discussion. It seems likely that there will be no perfect solution, but listening to each other and working towards a compromise is very constructive.

 Although I haven't been a very active member of the VSL forum but I just wanted to back up a lot of the posts I've seen here regarding the upgrade path decision, which I think is ridiculous, as many other users also have. I "invested" in the Pro Edition and Performance Set way back in 2004, and I also believed the promise that this investment would last a "lifetime", which turned out to be a lie. Whatever else has been said in previous posts I do not personally trust a company that has blatantly lied to me, and therefore will no longer be purchasing any of their products ever again. The photocopy of the original manual (from Mobius' post) which I own (and stupidly believed!) really sums up the whole matter as far as I'm concerned. I now feel ashamed that my investment (which, in a very patronising fashion, certain senior members of the forum claimed wasn't even supposed to be an "investment" after all!) has enabled VSL to expand as a company and then do this to their loyal customers. I am very suspicious of the motives of a company which would do this sort of thing, and it seems to be purely for financial reasons.

I was quite excited by the VI libraries when they first came out, and I listened critically to several of the new demos which were made using the new libraries. However I was a little disappointed in many cases, as to my ears most of the demos really did NOT sound any better than some of the fantastic demos made with the original Pro Edition and Performance Set (the overriding factor is obviously the musicality of the arranger, rather than the sheer number or format of samples he was using, or whether he was using the latest version of the sample player). This is mainly what discouraged me from spend 1000's more on extra samples and the new sample player, rather than financial reasons. Now there is even less reason to even consider "investing" in VI, due to the large extra costs that would be involved unless I go for the new libraries pretty much immediately, before the deadline!

I know that the VI technology has been around for 2 years (which incidentally was also pointed out in a very patronising way by another senior forum member), and I was seriously considering upgrading at some point. The technology and number of samples is increasing all the time so it must have something going for it (I'll admit that!). However I certainly will not be doing so now, and I don't want to have anything to do with this company any more. There are many alternative options which perhaps aren't as comprehensive as VSL as a whole, but gathered together there are many other viable and interesting ways to expand your sound palette which don't involve helpling VSL to achieve a monopoly over orchestral sampling which they are clearly aiming for. I hope other users come to the same conclusion, nice work VSL for alienating loyal customers. 

I 2nd the motion.