At the very least, do not change up policies so that the customers end up in a less secure position. We have all believed in you in the past, and some of us will keep believing in you despite the errors you make.

It has been said again and again, this is such a breach of your "promises" to us, your customers. As we all know this isn't the first time the VIP policy has been up for debate. There are countless threads on this forum, especially regarding the pricing at the release of the Symphonic Cube. Here is one of  many: "http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/16514.aspx?PageIndex=3"

As you might know not many of those threads are filled with positive content. Then, as now, the issue evolved around first generation customers feeling that they ended up having less priority with the VSL company. Although I feel for the people who got upset back then, I still could understand VSL's reasons to change the game. This time I do not.

Back then the VSL crew was infinetly more involved in the discussions, and over time the whole thing blew over. The customers  e v e n t u a l l y  calmed down, and in the end, still recived their promised VIP discounts.

It seems VSL took care of that piece of knowledge...this time around they have not been much publicly involved in the matter. Few, if any, explanations has come forth. And it really does not seem to be a middle way here, as VSL won't even budge the sligthest.

As I have the greatest of respects for the whole of the VSL company, it is sad to see you take a turn like this. It seems you now know that you can change the "rules" at any time, and just move on. If this was a matter of survival for the company I would understand. But clearly it is not. It seems to be a matter of inconviniece for VSL. This even knowing what consequences it will have  for (yeah I know...some of) your customers. Sad. Truly sad.

A closing comment. Reading an old VIP pricing issue thread (http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/t/16515.aspx), I stumbled upon this statement, from Herb himself:

@herb said:

(...) If you have Pro Edition and all upgrade related Horizon products you get 54% discount to upgrade to the Symphic Cube. (you pay 4220 Euro instead of 9200 Euro).

These upgrade (VIP) prices to the SC don't have a time limitation.
So if you buy Pro Edition now you pay 3400 Euro.
If you upgrade any time later to the SC you get a discount of 3790 Euro. 

best
Herb

So there you have it...

Kind regards

Tom-Erlend Malm

I only have one of the original Horizon products so the dropping of the VIP program doesn't effect me much.  I was planning on upgrading to the SE plus in the next couple months but after seeing this thread I've decided not to support VSL in the future.  They have lost my trust.  Instead the money will go to some other newer developers like Westgate.

Jim

OK, a lot of things were unforseeable in November 2005.

I didn't know for example that we will discontinue Pro Edition and Horizon Sample Libaries,

and didn't know that we will offer smaller editions and download based editions.

We have to change a lot of things, and now we'll have to change the old upgrade pathes,

offering much more discount than the historic costs of a Pro Edition in November 2005 till July 15th.

By the way VSL is doing well but is not "rich". The last 7 years we've invested every cent in sample and software developement.

Also there is no product line in developement which should remove the existing one.

We have recording schedules for another 5 years to enhance the existing products,

so hopefully we will release a lot of new instruments in the future.

best

Herb

 As an aside, on November 29, 2005 Bruce wrote the following:

@Bruce said:

Here is my solution after much consideration:<br><br>Take that 5,000 dollars and invest in Apple stock. Wait for it to double again-sell at 10,000. Then buy the VI. (that might take a year) Take the remaining 5k and buy oil futures. Wait for that to double and then buy the complete package<br><br>Herb will just have to wait....  awhile to get my cash.<br><br>Then again-if the initial VI upgrade was more in the realm of reason I would have ordered this week.<br><br>And yah- I would rather be composing than watching the stock market. But I can get by with the tools that i already own and paid hard earned cash for.

Had one followed Bruce's advice, but decided to sell today the value of the two $5000 investments (using the IXC ETF as a proxy for oil) the total current value would be $19957.00 meaning a, before tax profit of 99.57%. Almost enough to purchase the full version of the Cube. Had you bought oil futures contracts and traded them continuusly (instead of using the IXC ETF) your original $5000 investment would now be worth $12296 making the total value $24,560.00 - the profits being enough for the Cube and the full Appassionata Strings I & II.

In other words, Bruce gave sound investment advice to forum participants!!

@Errikos said:

Can you please explain what you just said about improving the upgrade paths with more discount since back then?

The Pro Edition was offered for 3400 € in Nov 2005.

If you upgrade to Symphonic Cube now you get a discount of 3790 € for a registered Pro Edition,

plus 2 free extended libaries, 595 € (chamber strings) and 330 € (woodwinds I) for example.

So all in all:  4715 € discount if you upgrade till July 15th.

Dear Herb & co,

Judging by the level of anger and disappointment expressed by so many long-time users in this thread, I would really encourage you to re-think this new decision to scrap the upgrades.

Even if it was only 10 users (and I'm sure it is far more) who resent the fact that their €4k or so sample library can neither be resold or upgraded (as promised at the time of purchase), that €40k still represents a significant pot of money invested in VSL over the years. Worse than this is the tarnishing of the reputation of what has, up until now, been one of the most respected names in music technology.

You are not a politician - nobody will think you are weak for reconsidering this move!!

Best,

David 

@herb said:

We have to change a lot of things, and now we'll have to change the old upgrade pathes,

offering much more discount than the historic costs of a Pro Edition in November 2005 till July 15th.

Hi Herb,

you still haven't really explained why the upgrade route has to go. For instance why wouldn't my suggestion work, that you keep the VIP route and the new route completely separate?

I'm willing to believe you that it won't, but so far we've only had the vague explanation that it's complicated, which sounds like it's possible but a bit too much like hard work. If that were the case then I would be quite upset that I had lost my upgrade because it would have been too much work for you. If you could demonstrate how it's impossible, rather than just difficult, then I would be happier.

Errikos, the *respective standard library* in your case is the Chamber Strings I Standard Library - the license of the Chamber Strings I Extended Library depends on an existing license for them.

the excerpt of the Chamber Stings included in the Special Edition Extended Library can originate from 2 paths: the Special Edition DVD product or the Orchestra Strings Extended Library - both licenses cannot be upgraded to the Chamber Strings Full Library, because a lot of samples from the Chamber Strings (DVD) Standard Library will be missing.

such an upgrade path (Special Edition -> VI Chamber Strings or Orchestra Chamber Strings -> VI Chamber Strings)) can only be realized offering a discount on the product, not just issuing an upgrade license.

Pingu, based on this little example - are you already suspecting why combining or a side-by-side option would lead into a minefield?

add Horizon Chamber Strings and the upcoming Orchestra Chamber Strings to the calculation and try to find out which combination should entitle for which discount ... (and chamber is a relatively simple example, since they are neither included in opus nor in the first or pro edition)

christian

If you can program the VI surely you can write an algorithm to properly calculate a discount?  It probably wouldn't even take 32 GB of RAM.

it is not a question of an algorithm, but of defining the term *properly* (at everybodies convenience), as my simple example above should have illustrated.

christian

@cm said:

Pingu, based on this little example - are you already suspecting why combining or a side-by-side option would lead into a minefield?

Not really. I'll have to take your word for it. From my point of view - I only have the ProEdition Orchestra, the Concert Guitar and Elements - I can't think of any reason why I would have bought the Orchestra, and then also bought any complicating libraries - because they would have been a step-down from what I had. So the only route I've really been considering in all this was Pro_orchestra to Strings I+II, Winds I+II, Brass I+II and Percussion. For that route I can't see any complications.

As for others, it seems to me that the fact that you've started combining things in many different combinations really ought to be your problem. The upgrades have become impossible because customers may own different parts of the new 'flagship' products, but it seems rather unfair to arbitrarily take the upgrade route from people who were promised it, and give it to people who weren't, simply because you've complicated the product line.

As I suggested earlier, one solution might still be to continue to offer the upgrade route, but not further discounts. You seem to be worried that people might then start demanding a discount depending on the combined samples they own. I don't think that would be true. Currently some of your libraries offer upgrade routes, and others don't. The others are about to gain an upgrade route, but as yet it's not set in stone. SE users have never had the 'Never pay twice for the same samples' promise. If you draw up a user agreement, at this point, that says the two can't be combined then nobody can complain. Owners of the Legacy products keep their upgrades, and will thank you profusely. Owners of SE instruments get a new way to expand, and will also be very happy. Those who own combinations of both have not lost anything, because you don't offer it in the new agreement. Whilst those who are used to the First Edition promise may assume there should be an implied further discount for owning both, the SE doesn't fall under this requirement. To me, not offering an implied promise to customers who, as yet, have nothing, is far less harsh than taking away your promise from other customers.

Even then, I suppose someone will say that they're paying for the same samples twice, but it will be far fewer people. Not only that, but those people, by definition must own some first edition or horizon products. If it turns out the upgrade from their particular SE instruments to the VIs is cheaper then they can opt for it - if, on the other hand, the route from the legacy products to VI remains the cheaper option, they're hardly likely to complain that you left this cheaper route available to them, even if it's not as cheap as some imaginary combined discount.

To me this seems like a compromise where everyone continues to win. Bear in mind that Pro-Edition customers are probably those who see VSL as their core orchestra, whilst many SE customers probably have it as an addition to something else. So many of the customers who are upset by this decision would probably have continued to buy up VSL products for years to come.

@dschweitzer said:

Dear Herb & co,

 

Judging by the level of anger and disappointment expressed by so many long-time users in this thread, I would really encourage you to re-think this new decision to scrap the upgrades.

 

Even if it was only 10 users (and I'm sure it is far more) who resent the fact that their €4k or so sample library can neither be resold or upgraded (as promised at the time of purchase), that €40k still represents a significant pot of money invested in VSL over the years. Worse than this is the tarnishing of the reputation of what has, up until now, been one of the most respected names in music technology.

 

You are not a politician - nobody will think you are weak for reconsidering this move!!

Best,

David 

 

Maybe I'm just a lousy business person, but to me one of the basics is - you don't change the deal AFTER the deal has been agreed upon.  Sure, we need to adapt to a changing landscape.  Prices have to go up, deals need to change.  VSL's recent American price increase because of the plummeting value of the dollar?  Totally understandable and justifiable.  But what if AFTER the purchase, VSL sent everyone a bill for the difference?  Bad business?  Not much to disagree with there. 

That's been my only point the whole way.  When I bought their product, we had a deal.  The deal included a stated upgrade path.  Now AFTER the purchase, they're changing the deal. 

A small example.  Ten years ago, I joined the DVD-by-mail rental service Netflix.  I got a certain number of rentals per month for a set price.  Since then, their prices have gone up a number of times, and you get fewer discs for the price.  But my deal has stayed the same - same price, same number of discs.  As long as you maintain your membership, your price NEVER goes up from the level you enter at.  Price increases only apply to new members.  I've been bombarded with offers from competitors, but I remain loyal to Netflix...because they remain loyal to me.  (Their profits were up 36% this year, so there must be something to it.)

It's just good business.   

A friendly Hello to all,

I read the whole thread because I have ordered 4 Horizon products last year, two of them in October/November 2007. Since I also was happy to get the Special Edition with its comfort, too, I only registered the Horizon products, but indeed never used them. For me it was an investment, like a savings plan for the future. I don´t want to complain at all, but I write this so that everyone can see that it´s also concerning me and my following proposal is not only a purely altruistic one ;-)  Of course I don´t know all the problems which have to be solved when installing a new upgrade path - also for further products in future -, but maybe it´s worth to think about a bit. I try to write plain though my english isn´t practiced very often.

If I see it right, the problem is that the new upgrade path is not compatible with the old one. Ok. This should be accepted.

I also think that no one seriously can expect that VSL holds up the whole development and adjustment of prices and upgrade possibilities which come necessarily with new products only because some users of the old products (me among them) haven´t upgraded yet and will not do it until July or October 2008. Equal if the reasons are a matter of financial problems or others.

But on the other hand I think that the promised upgrade path has a value which gets lost after the dead line ends.

The moral aspect in this discussion is in my opinion stressed a bit too much. I think only users who purchased licenses during the last year have a right to complain. But owning licenses for a distinctly longer time and then complaining about the existance of a dead line is imho a bit exaggerated because I´m very sure that VSL has no prophets among the crew who could forecast the actual situation. But this is only my point of view. Let´s go on thinking about a possible solution. The situation is:

There are already new products, download products, and there will come more new products, as Herb posted. We already know there will be licenses for separate instruments e.g.

I think it´s not necessary to make one big upgrade path which implements the old products fully. This is not possible, too. It was a work for Hercules only to make the old discount calculator. ;-)

Maybe it´s a solution to divide it into two paths as proposed in postings above. But how to construct it? At first - keep the old upgrade path very restricted. Not to all possible VIs which have a little portion of the old samples, but only to one or two accordant VIs. The people who have the license for the Pro Library can for instance keep discounts only for the purchase of the existing Symphonic cube or separate VIs of the Cube. But not for separate instruments, not for download products, not for Special Edition or others (which all didn´t exist in 2005 anyway). The users of the Horizon products can be also limited to few accordant VIs. For instance the woodwind ensemble: A limited upgrade path to Woodwind I and II is enough. Nothing else. French Oboe - only necessary is one upgrade path to woodwind I - or maybe even better the download solo instrument when it can be purchased in future. Or for Opus Users only one upgrade path to Special Edition and nothing else.

To make it compatible with the new upgrade concept there can be a strictly separation: If a customer uses the new upgrade possibilities then the old products (First / Pro / Horizon) should be completely ignored. If the user wants to realize the upgrade value of his old product he/she has first to use the separated "restricted" upgrade path as descripted above to get a "modern" product. So the User still can make up his mind and at least don´t completely lose the possibility to upgrade.

Maybe this thought seems like the quadrature of a circle but maybe it´s worth to think a bit more in this direction. If there finally isn´t a workable solution with upgrade-algorithms, I will accept this but would hope that VSL could make some goodwill discounts for users who want to upgrade after the ending of the dead line. Thank you for reading so much.

Best

Rainer

@cm said:

Errikos, the *respective standard library* in your case is the Chamber Strings I Standard Library - the license of the Chamber Strings I Extended Library depends on an existing license for them.

the excerpt of the Chamber Stings included in the Special Edition Extended Library can originate from 2 paths: the Special Edition DVD product or the Orchestra Strings Extended Library - both licenses cannot be upgraded to the Chamber Strings Full Library, because a lot of samples from the Chamber Strings (DVD) Standard Library will be missing.

such an upgrade path (Special Edition -> VI Chamber Strings or Orchestra Chamber Strings -> VI Chamber Strings)) can only be realized offering a discount on the product, not just issuing an upgrade license.

Pingu, based on this little example - are you already suspecting why combining or a side-by-side option would lead into a minefield?

add Horizon Chamber Strings and the upcoming Orchestra Chamber Strings to the calculation and try to find out which combination should entitle for which discount ... (and chamber is a relatively simple example, since they are neither included in opus nor in the first or pro edition)

christian

Two things baed on Christian's reply to me and Pingu:

1) As I suspected. through the Special Edition I cannot upgrade to anything decent except other buffet offerings unless I pay real money, and I don't expect to.

2) Even if I believe for a minute that a tally of the disparate upgrades is hard for the company to arrange, do the following:

Offer Pro Edition users one upgrade path only, the one that was promised - to the Cube. Do not combine that path with anything else, and keep it separate.

None of us I suspect can or will complain about that. Now how hard can that be really? Once we have upgraded to the Cube (if that product is still on offer), then we can join the rest with the other varieties of convoluted upgrade paths.

 Sincerely,

Errikos 

Well I too feel quite gipped by VSL!

I bought the Horizon Saxophones Vol 1 within days of it coming out.

Then they renegged on releasing Vol 2 in GIGA (my preferred format at the time), and told me that I would need to buy the Vol 2 in their VSL player format.

Fair enough, I could swallow that... but they didn't want to offer a Saxophones Vol 2.

Instead they decided to FORCE me to re-purchase the VI Saxes all over again in order to get the additional Volume 2 content.

Their supposed "generous" discount was to offer a discount if I purchase the extended library, but I only get the discount if I REPURCHASE the same samples I already have (and please don't argue the semantics about the 24-bit samples being different from the 16-bit versions).

Now imagine my disgust to find that they are now holding a gun to my head to FORCE me to buy the VI version now in order to make use their upgrade path. Especially when this was originally promised as an upgrade path with NO TIMEFRAME attached.

To put it bluntly I am very ticked that VSL have broken their word regarding the "not having to purchase the same samples twice" promise and ALSO RENEGGED on their upgrade option.

And now that they are trying to FORCE me into a purchase... they have LOST ME permanently as a customer with their DISPICABLE behaviour and APPAULING TREATMENT as a customer. 

@RainerL said:

To make it compatible with the new upgrade concept there can be a strictly separation: If a customer uses the new upgrade possibilities then the old products (First / Pro / Horizon) should be completely ignored. If the user wants to realize the upgrade value of his old product he/she has first to use the separated "restricted" upgrade path as descripted above to get a "modern" product. So the User still can make up his mind and at least don´t completely lose the possibility to upgrade.

See that sounds logical to me. I don't fully understand the current range of products, nor those to come. I don't understand, for instance, whether there are SE instruments which containt articulations found nowhere else, or whether everything VSL do is a subset of the main VI collections. If the former is true then I can see how the situation could be really complicated. Also, if the number of articulations continues to expand, whilst the collections are broken down into individual instruments, then I can see some users upgrading to the Symphonic Cube, but then wanting to get hold of the articulations they don't have in the super-duper utterly extended individual downloadable oboe.

Presumably, though, that particular upgrade path is eventually going to have to be created anyway, for those who currently own the symphonic cube. So the idea of restricting the upgrade potential of the Giga editions to just the symphonic cube, and only then allowing us to continue on the upgrade path to whatever is coming, seems to make perfect sense.