So here's an idea. I am certain I don't know what I'm talking about, but whatever....
Maybe there's a price cut coming after July 15 (or whatever the cutoff date is) that exceeds the discount you'd get under the current pricing.
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@PaulR said:
Dishonesty? I assume you have a bank account do you? Do you go to your bank and tell them they are a bunch of assholes and totally dishonest?Frequently!! I've taken them up on numerous counts and won on many.
I'm giving up on this argument, because you completely refuse to see my point. I don't doubt that other firms behave absolutely dreadfully. When they do so in breach of contract then yes I call them on it. When they've had the forsight (and banks fall into this category) to mention in their contract that they can alter clauses with sufficient notice, then there's not a lot you can do. Unfortunately VSL didn't mention ever changing their 'lifetime' promise - they fall into the category of firms I would usually be calling and ranting at.
And it's all very well pointing out that most firms behave with even less concern for their customers, but VSL aren't most firms, and I wouldn't want them to be. I would hate to have to think of them in the way I do British Gas or the Labour party. Which is why I'd like them to explain.
And yes I did try to open a private dialogue with them, but they ignored that too.
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@Pingu said:
I'm giving up on this argument, because you completely refuse to see my point.
I don't NEED to see your point do I? WTF has your point got to do with anything? I know you don't agree with anything I put forward. Does that bother me.? No - of course it doesn't bother me. Do I take it personally? No - of course not.
Whether you like it or not - you have behaved badly on this, and other forums. You need to stop right now. If you have these problems - write to VSL direct. If they don't reply straightaway - then try and be patient for a change.
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That's actually a very good point. On the other side, the advantage of making it public is, that everybody could read the answers of VSL at once, which actually makes it easier for everybody.@DG said:
I also agree that if one perceives that VSL has made a mistake, one has a duty to inform them, but I believe that rather than insult them in public, one should set up a private dialogue. Anything else is more akin to the mob mentality, and is not something that I would want to be associated with.I don't think that VSL has the time and appetite to answer the same question a hundret times per eMail.
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hmmm, are we supposed to all go private mails now? We are quite some users here - what is so problematic communicating with us? thanks best@herb said:
Whom and when did you try to contact, I couldn't find any emails in our records?
best
Herb
We just try to take care, that all support emails reach our desk, that's all.
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May I suggest that, on such an important thread, attention should be focused on the issues at hand and avoid squabbling amongst ourselves while they watch from above? I believe that the customer's argument has been amply presented in a variety of ways, sometimes soberly, other times indignantly, but let's face it, it has been presented. VSL itself has not counter-argued or even presented a single position, an iota of thought, a modicum of explanation, not for why they need money, not for why the world of business is the way it is, not for why the upgrades are changing, but for one thing only: How they can think it would be easy and ethical to walk away from their repeated public paeans of "never pay twice..." (should be changed to "never pay more than three or four times..."), "VIP program", and the rest; pompous lures which, along with the quality of the product, constituted the edge between the VSL and its competitors.
Again, VSL's new stance could be understood if not condoned, in case the company decided to cease manufacturing the specific product, or in case the company was going under. Since neither is occurring, certain conclusions concerning the management's business practices will become foregone; we have been accorded no other information.
Lest we forget, the product itself would not have sold one tenth if it was not for the demo section, bristling with works and great mock-ups by brilliant programmers, that is how I was convinced to join the bandwagon myself in the first place. Those fantastic, visionary efforts are publicly displayed, as are all the collected sang praises to the company - "many thanks again for the wonderful products", "I love you team of the VSL" etc. I don't see a reason why valid criticisms should be privatized. The praises have seemed to be of a collective mentality, so will be the complaints.
Please, let's concentrate our efforts in getting the company to re-examine their recent coup, whether they will decide it is the right thing to do or that it is in their best business interests is a secondary consideration.
Sincerely,
Errikos.
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Some of you may own the Performance Tool Tutorial DVD released in 2004.
On it there's a chapter called "Create Reality". Starting at 11'22", Paul Stenibauer discusses an upgrade path from Opus 1. At 11'35" he clearly states the following...
"...and we offer an upgrade path which guarantees that you never pay twice for the samples you already own."
With hindsight, it seems this claim is manifestly untrue or, to put it another way, it's a bare faced lie.
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@Marsdy said:
Some of you may own the Performance Tool Tutorial DVD released in 2004.
On it there's a chapter called "Create Reality". Starting at 11'22", Paul Stenibauer discusses an upgrade path from Opus 1. At 11'35" he clearly states the following...
"...and we offer an upgrade path which guarantees that you never pay twice for the samples you already own."
With hindsight, it seems this claim is manifestly untrue or, to put it another way, it's a bare faced lie.
Hi Marsdy,
if you upgrade till July 15th 2008 you will get your upgrade price. (plus free extended libraries)
If VSL introduce any time in the future a new sampler platform there will be upgrade options, too.
(we do not have any plans now, but who knows)
And if you don't want to upgrade you don't pay twice.
Just curious, what were your primary upgrade plans?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?
best
Herb
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Hello Herb, I'm a I'm a proud owner of Horizon Chamber Strings, Solo Strings, and Opus bundle, and I was truly hoping to one day upgrade to VI! So I did have upgrade plans, and was safe in knowing that my upgrade path was secure, waiting for the time when I was able to afford to upgrade.
If you do away with the VIP "dont pay for the same sample twice," policy, dont you see how its unfair for current users? Why would we upgrade our systems if we have to pay a lot of money for the exact same samples we already have! At one time you recognized this point, to which you created the upgrade policy that pervious Horizon owners got the extended library for cheep, making it fair as we got new content when we upgraded. Without this policy, its not fair to spend on the standard VI when its just a duplicate of the Horizon series we already own!
Do you have any idea of what the future "special pricing" will be for users like me? Because right now, I cant help but feel betrayed and mislead. I purchased \ VSL Horizon products EXPECTING to one day upgrade to VI, so its like a slap in the face to see this path will no longer be available. You can say "you had two years to upgrade" but this is not true. Had I known about your policy change 2 years ago, I would have planned and saved money to re-invest in your company. Now, I'm not sure I'll be able to afford the upgraded. And if I dont now, I doubt I ever will, as I cannot afford to pay for the same sample twice, regardless of how cool the new interface is.
Thanks for listening Herb, and I hope you were able to follow my points, and empathize with how users like me feel. I look forward to a resolution that works well for all parties involved!
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Another person here who DEFINITELY has plans to upgrade. I'd love to have the productivity increase I know I'll get. It's just taking a lot longer than I'd like.
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@Pingu said:
And yes I did try to open a private dialogue with them, but they ignored that too.
Whom and when did you try to contact, I couldn't find any emails in our records?
best
Herb
Hi Herb,
I used the contact details on the front page of the website (office@vsl.co.at) on Saturday. Sorry if you didn't get it.
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"Why the *** should they tell you anything? Huh? Are they a listed company? I don't think so. Are you a shareholder? Well I don't believe you can be.So where the *** do get off making those sort of demands? And who the *** is we?
If I decide to defend VSL because they understandably cannot - then that's my fucking decision - and if you don't like it - you can go and *** yourself! And if you want me to repeat that face to face - be my guest!!!"
I don't know what kind of forums you frequent at, but I would think this kind of posting doesn't belong at the VSL forum.
If someone chooses to call VSL liars, it's their buisness, but does it qualify as an insult? Well, it should be clear to most by now that nothing in their markeding atleast has indicated that complete removal of the "upgrade" paths. So lying, misleading, corporate move...I don't know. It was certianly unexpected.
Most of the people posting here makes it quite clear that, ofcourse, money is an issue. Not everyone can afford these prices, still they choose to spend money on VSL products. Also alot of people has, despite postes with "negative" content, stated their clear respect for both the VSL and their achivements. We expect VSL to show us the same courtesy.
But again, why do I even bother to post this, it's time to ignore this guy as he probably is operating at an intelligence level way above our own. So how about not letting him drag this anymore off topic and keep trying to reach VSL?
Back to topic...
"Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?"
Herb, is this really what you are reading from the all the above posts? In my opinion this couldn't be more wrong! Atleast what I am seeing is alot of people who absolutly love your accomplishments, your products and your policy. And from that I read that they want to keep it that way. I certainly think most were planning to upgrade. But moving from words like "guarantee" and "lifetime" to 3 (6) months is kind of harsh, isn't it? I would think it's quite clear in what way your customers have percived the VIP policy.
I can only speak for myself ofcourse, but I will have to upgrade money or no money. It's that or no VI's as the price will become to high. It is just sad it has to happen this way. And ofcourse it sets the mood for future interaction between VSL and your customers. I don't think that is too hard to see.Kind regards
Tom-Erlend Malm
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Whether you like it or not - you have behaved badly on this, and other forums. You need to stop right now. If you have these problems - write to VSL direct. If they don't reply straightaway - then try and be patient for a change.
Don't make me laugh. All I've done is ask for some answers, express an opinion, and talk about how this latest development makes me feel. I thought it was an open forum. Apparently it's fine for you to call everyone stupid if they don't agree with you, to use foul language every time someone gets under your skin, and to openly declare your disregard for the welfare of everyone else; but I'm behaving badly?
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@Marsdy said:
Some of you may own the Performance Tool Tutorial DVD released in 2004.
On it there's a chapter called "Create Reality". Starting at 11'22", Paul Stenibauer discusses an upgrade path from Opus 1. At 11'35" he clearly states the following...
"...and we offer an upgrade path which guarantees that you never pay twice for the samples you already own."
With hindsight, it seems this claim is manifestly untrue or, to put it another way, it's a bare faced lie.
Hi Marsdy,
if you upgrade till July 15th 2008 you will get your upgrade price. (plus free extended libraries)
If VSL introduce any time in the future a new sampler platform there will be upgrade options, too.
(we do not have any plans now, but who knows)
And if you don't want to upgrade you don't pay twice.
Just curious, what were your primary upgrade plans?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?
best
Herb
Hello Herb,
I am not Marsdy obviously, and may I say that you joining this discussion as opposed to just monitoring it is at least a step forward, and if you could clarify a few things for us perhaps we can arrive at a mutually acceptable solution.
I certainly have plans to upgrade, as I believe most users here do, if for no other reason, beause other companies do not seem to make their products fully compatible with your early illustrious offerings. I don't think anybody here is a moron, customer or company member, yet some are drifting from the main issue, and the company does not seem to answer it, so:
1) The upgrade plan was offered forever (at least the lifetime of the licensee or the company's). As a consequence, regardless of any new products or combinations thereof offered, if the playing samples remained the same, the licensee should not be required to pay a cent more, not one! What we shall understandably be charged for will be a new engine, interface, etc. That is why this 15th of July (or October) deadline is irreconcilable with the company's long known motto. Not this year's July or the next's. If you said instead "whoever upgrades until July gets extra extended libraries" that would be perfectably acceptable, as you would be attempting to generate cashflow with an incentive, without compromising the original contractual warranty. However, this is not the case here, is it?
2) "If VSL introduce any time in the future a new sampler platform there will be upgrade options, too.
(we do not have any plans now, but who knows)"
What is this about? "Who knows?"?? I want to know and a lot of other users here I am sure will want to know too. And the main question is: Upgrade options for them as well means what exactly? Can you enlighten us with a hypothetical example? For instance, someone paid for the Pro Edition. Upgrading to the Cube now will cost him an additional €5400. How much will the upgrade path for a new sampler platform cost him (if it does not involve a complete re-recording of an orchestra)? Another €5400 for the same samples? How much will it cost to a complete newcomer that has not patronized your shop thus far? Will you sell it to him for €15000 over?
Thanks,
Errikos
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@tommalm said:
"Maybe I'm wrong, but I have the feeling, that especially the people who didn't have any upgrade plans are most upset?"
Herb, is this really what you are reading from the all the above posts? In my opinion this couldn't be more wrong! Atleast what I am seeing is alot of people who absolutly love your accomplishments, your products and your policy. And from that I read that they want to keep it that way. I certainly think most were planning to upgrade. But moving from words like "guarantee" and "lifetime" to 3 (6) months is kind of harsh, isn't it? I would think it's quite clear in what way your customers have percived the VIP policy.
I can only speak for myself ofcourse, but I will have to upgrade money or no money. It's that or no VI's as the price will become to high. It is just sad it has to happen this way. And ofcourse it sets the mood for future interaction between VSL and your customers. I don't think that is too hard to see.Kind regards
Tom-Erlend Malm
I am in the same boat. I have spent years trying to buy into VSL, and had every intention of upgrading. If that weren't the case there is no way I'd be adding my voice here.
The current situation has left me really indecisive. On the one hand I am part way through building a system around the VIs, and am tempted to go into debt to finish - there is absolutely no way I will ever manage to upgrade without the VIP plan, so it has to be now or never. On the other hand I'm now really unsettled about how the future will pan out if I do stretch my finances to upgrade. I don't want to be left behind again in a year. Hence my needing to understand what's going on.
