I couldn't agree more, Paul. The way we make our buying decisions is of no consequence in this discussion. I only used it as an example. The point was, we rely on honest information from the people we spend our money with. If we don't get it - we'll buy from someone else. Plus, our relationship with VSL is different than the one we have with our health insurance company. I have NO affection for our health insurance company, while I have great affection for VSL. I wouldn't ask anyone to change their opinion...I'm just expressing mine. I understand all too well the concept of shifting economic realities and the need for a company to adapt to them. What about the idea of simply keeping your word? Is that a load of bollocks, too?
-
Now things are getting out of hand. Why let this PaulR guy drag this thread anymore of topic? He is not contributing at all, neither way, to what we are trying to say. I, for one (naively enough) is trying to reach the VSL company, although the attempt problably won't do much good.
There have been quite a few responses to this thread, but I can't see to many asking for PaulR opinion in any of the relevant questions, but he has nevertheless been quite eager to state his mind. Which ofcourse is fine as this is an open forum. But when you, PaulR, start handing out insults it has gotten to a level which does not belong here at all.
Disappointingly enough (or should I say, "as expectet") it seems like VSL will block out the opinions of their customers, and just let this whole thing blow over.
-
Stephen - this business about promises pales into insignificance when you look at things as a whole. OK - I could concede it's a bit naughty - oh dear - can you ever forgive my type of thing. OK Steve - you win. Let's move on from that. It's business. It's Chinatown.
The company would probably like to stay in business and grow over time - yes?
We like VSL and their products - yes?
We have enjoyed over time high levels of service from them - yes?
We want them to have a future - yes?
We would all like to be rich - but some of us will have to wait - yes?
We are basically musicians and are of a forgiving nature -yes?
We look forward to new VSL products over time -yes?
We will all pay heavily for the crap that the world's banking organizations have just made - yes?
But we will all probably still use banks - yes?
-
@DG said:
Pingu, when you post on a public forum, you make the discussion public. You have no right only to solicit opinions that agree with your own.Absolutely, which is why I'm entitled to respond to you in the same abbrasive manner that you employ in all of your posts. Dismissing your opinion seems to have rattled you rather quickly.
Have you read all my posts? I highly doubt it. [:O]
You think you "rattled me"? I highly doubt it. [:D]
DG
-
@tommalm said:
But when you, PaulR, start handing out insults it has gotten to a level which does not belong here at all.
Insults? What insults? You mean like coming onto a public forum owned by VSL and THEN calling them bare faced liars - on their own forum. You mean insults like that?
Your contribution so far has been severely negative. You have beefed on and on and on about not having any money. I mean - one post would have sufficed on that - but now... I DEMAND to see your bank account details! You want details from VSL - OK - I DEMAND to see your personal financial situation in precis form right now!
-
@DG said:
Pingu, when you post on a public forum, you make the discussion public. You have no right only to solicit opinions that agree with your own.Absolutely, which is why I'm entitled to respond to you in the same abbrasive manner that you employ in all of your posts. Dismissing your opinion seems to have rattled you rather quickly.
Have you read all my posts? I highly doubt it.
You think you "rattled me"? I highly doubt it.
DG
Sorry DG, completely used the wrong quote - I meant to grab a part of PaulR's post, and got distracted, then wrote a response to what was in my window, without spotting your name at the top.
-
@PaulR said:
[quote=Pingu]Bottom line is their actions are quite simply wrong, and we'd like to know why. No amount of jumping up and down and saying that other people do it is going to make their actions right.Don't be so stupid. Right and wrong is not a matter of opinion. You are confusing them with legal and illegal; I have no doubt at all that there is no legal recourse against VSL's actions, particularly in the international market they operate in. But their actions are still wrong. Unless you believe dishonesty was declared to be ok at some point.
-
@PaulR said:
[quote=Pingu]Bottom line is their actions are quite simply wrong, and we'd like to know why. No amount of jumping up and down and saying that other people do it is going to make their actions right.Don't be so stupid. Right and wrong is not a matter of opinion. You are confusing them with legal and illegal; I have no doubt at all that there is no legal recourse against VSL's actions, particularly in the international market they operate in. But their actions are still wrong. Unless you believe dishonesty was declared to be ok at some point.
OHHHH - I seeeeeee! You're right!!!! Oh I get it now. Pingu is RIGHT!! Pingu is always RIGHT!!!
Dishonesty? I assume you have a bank account do you? Do you go to your bank and tell them they are a bunch of assholes and totally dishonest?
You are on an 'open' forum and other open forums as Daryl has valiantly attempted to point out to you. Some here could be forgiven in thinking you were some kind of stalking horse from another company the way you're carrying on.
-
@PaulR said:
Stephen - this business about promises pales into insignificance when you look at things as a whole. OK - I could concede it's a bit naughty - oh dear - can you ever forgive my type of thing. OK Steve - you win. Let's move on from that. It's business. It's Chinatown.
The company would probably like to stay in business and grow over time - yes?
We like VSL and their products - yes?
We have enjoyed over time high levels of service from them - yes?
We want them to have a future - yes?While I couldn't agree more with what you say about VSL, its products, services and its customers' hopes for its future, I have to disagree with the idea that, in any contractual agreement - - written or implied, either party is free to change the terms of the contract whenever it suits them. (Try that with your credit card company!)
A company can be great, make great products, offer great service, have idealistic intentions at its core and still make flawed, self-defeating decisions. It isn't helpful to the survival of a company if those who perceive that it has made a poor decision, stay silent. If you were to perceive a friend engaged in what you thought to be predictably self-defeating behavior, would you not risk his or her anger, by pointing out what you perceive?
-
@stevesong said:
A company can be great, make great products, offer great service, have idealistic intentions at its core and still make flawed, self-defeating decisions. I
Absolutely - but you just have to accept that and move on. I can't think of one single company in the history of the universe that isn't like that. Most have been a lot worse actually. You just put up with that and move on. It's no good being holier than thou and all idealistic with the likes of me btw.
I don't go out of my way to make friends - I'm not interested in any of that. I'm way too brutal and try to be honest. Too bad if people can't deal with that - that's not my problem. They may all be better musicians than I'll ever be - but most of them don't know sh!t about money, that's for sure.
-
@stevesong said:
A company can be great, make great products, offer great service, have idealistic intentions at its core and still make flawed, self-defeating decisions. It isn't helpful to the survival of a company if those who perceive that it has made a poor decision, stay silent. If you were to perceive a friend engaged in what you thought to be predictably self-defeating behavior, would you not risk his or her anger, by pointing out what you perceive?
Stephen, I respect you a lot, when I consider how unlike many other posters in this thread, you have consistently helped people to get the best out of this software in this community. I also agree that if one perceives that VSL has made a mistake, one has a duty to inform them, but I believe that rather than insult them in public, one should set up a private dialogue. Anything else is more akin to the mob mentality, and is not something that I would want to be associated with.
DG
-
Wow, you really seem to have a hard time understanding this - No - it is not about wanting something now and not being able to afford it! That is the point! What about the sentence you do not understand?@PaulR said:
This thread - Fred - is not really about insurance or assurance. This thread is about people wanting a thing right now and not having enough money concurrent with imminent purchase. It's about 'wants' and not 'needs' - we talked on this years ago if I remember correctly.
It is about that a promised option is taken away which forces people into having to buy something now and not being and willing able to afford it! This is a slight but important difference. -
And even if we whine - is it your business? No, not at all. best
-
@PaulR said:
Dishonesty? I assume you have a bank account do you? Do you go to your bank and tell them they are a bunch of assholes and totally dishonest?Frequently!! I've taken them up on numerous counts and won on many.
I'm giving up on this argument, because you completely refuse to see my point. I don't doubt that other firms behave absolutely dreadfully. When they do so in breach of contract then yes I call them on it. When they've had the forsight (and banks fall into this category) to mention in their contract that they can alter clauses with sufficient notice, then there's not a lot you can do. Unfortunately VSL didn't mention ever changing their 'lifetime' promise - they fall into the category of firms I would usually be calling and ranting at.
And it's all very well pointing out that most firms behave with even less concern for their customers, but VSL aren't most firms, and I wouldn't want them to be. I would hate to have to think of them in the way I do British Gas or the Labour party. Which is why I'd like them to explain.
And yes I did try to open a private dialogue with them, but they ignored that too.
-
@Pingu said:
I'm giving up on this argument, because you completely refuse to see my point.
I don't NEED to see your point do I? WTF has your point got to do with anything? I know you don't agree with anything I put forward. Does that bother me.? No - of course it doesn't bother me. Do I take it personally? No - of course not.
Whether you like it or not - you have behaved badly on this, and other forums. You need to stop right now. If you have these problems - write to VSL direct. If they don't reply straightaway - then try and be patient for a change.