I must say that this thread and the plaints of so many make me sad. Here we are far from the spirit of creative collaboration that has, over the years, made these forums a uniquely happy enterprise. Promises made and then breached always have this effect. To the folks at VSL I say, listen....
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>> or instance, if the problem, as they claim, is really that it's difficult to run two discount systems simultaneously, then what is the problem with a permanent note on the file of all Pro-Library owners, showing the discount they can expect on the VIs? >>
Well, if there is the option of changing/exchanging the sales IT or the customers quite some companies would chance the first - seems odd to try to change/exchange the latter ......
In the worst case they would just keep one computer (an old one - sure they have something like that) with the old calculations operating - it is too easy and obvious to really discuss that reasonably.
>> I would like to point out that there is more control over the instruments for experienced programmers, particularly using Gigastudio Orchestra where an unlimited instrument/ keyswitches can control an instrument to the programers taste, and not tied in to an interpretation of what was intended which the VI's give. >>
Very true - the older sample libraries offer much better adaptation to workflow, setup and to achieve the results I want (especially if one is more oriented towards modern and experimental music). The VI looks nice, but limited and locked down libraries are always at a risk. Normally one should expect that locked down libraries are more affordable than open libraries, as misuse can be avoided more easily. The VI has innovative aspects but on the other hand it is using a very traditional playback concept .... play a sample from HD - that is Giga 1997 or so. the biggest advantage over the library and for me the selling point - more variation/articulations and more dynamic resolution.
thanks for listening
best
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I'm with those disappointed. Pro Edition owner, and just last week I was finally able to begin buying the Orch Strings set just a day before the announcement came out closing the path.
Last week, I wasn't considering any other avenue than that of finding a way to get the rest of the Vienna VI library over the next nine months, and VSL was going to get another substantial chunk of change from me.
Now, after reading through the comments and weighing up the options its unlikely I will spend on more than 30%, if that, on the existing offer before July 15th.
In a week I've gone from begin a complete convert (and evangelist for others), to wondering why I would give my money over now when it's pretty obvious a new level is on the, for lack of a better word, horizon. And it's clear there will be any joy for owners like me in terms of upgrade paths in the future.
So if turning off an existing core base of users was the intent of this announcement, it worked. I can't see what VSL gains by this approach except to generate some sales in the next quarter. Weigh that against the uproar? In my case it did the opposite, the £3k I was ready to spend last week with VSL will likely go elsewhere now. The edge that I used to give to VSL over other companies, because of their approach to the customer relationship, is gone.
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Just want to voice out my disapprove about the decision to drop upgrade plan for 1st/Pro edition. I for one was very close to buy a performance set for EXS24 [clearance price for 1600] Along with the EXS24 problem, now the new upgrade plan, I feel like that was a GREAT ESCAPE! I have lost confidence when buying VSL library, I will hold up ALL plan and wait until a better time, let's see what July 15 will bring Regards Sonny
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+@dsstudio said:
Just want to voice out my disapprove about the decision to drop upgrade plan for 1st/Pro edition. I for one was very close to buy a performance set for EXS24 [clearance price for 1600] Along with the EXS24 problem, now the new upgrade plan, I feel like that was a GREAT ESCAPE! I have lost confidence when buying VSL library, I will hold up ALL plan and wait until a better time, let's see what July 15 will bring Regards Sonny
I bought the EXS Performance Edition some time ago and I certainly don't feel any problem with that. I use it all the time - and guess what - it still works. I will upgrade to the VI system one day I'm sure and I certainly don't feel like I'm in jail and of need of escape.
I remember sending an email to VSL years ago about my nervousness of using this technology and they told me THEN - why don't you get some of the smaller libraries first and see how you get on. They were not in the slightest bit worried about trying to sell bigger and more expensive libraries just for the sake of it.
Believe me when I tell you - I know something about sales and selling - and VSL is NOT an aggressive sales organization IN MY opinion. If they need to raise prices - IN MY opinion they must have a good reason.
I'm sorry, but call me old-fashioned - I don't understand how some of the people on this thread know how to walk and breath at the same time - I mean - HOW do some of you ACTUALLY live? Huh? How do you manage to pay your bills. Beats me.
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@PaulR said:
I'm sorry, but call me old-fashioned - I don't understand how some of the people on this thread know how to walk and breath at the same time - I mean - HOW do some of you ACTUALLY live? Huh? How do you manage to pay your bills. Beats me.There you go again with that incredible arrogance, when actually the problem is not anyone else's lack of intelligence, but the fact that you keep completely missing the point of the thread. I'm sure there are probably good reasons that VSL have had to go back on their promises, and no they're not by any means aggressively avaricious, judging by previous behaviour. The point is that they won't explain their reasons. No matter how you keep excusing it there has been a breach of promise, and we would like to believe that the team we've come to know would at least explain.
Even you should be able to tell that endlessly reiterating the mantra, 'They're not as bad as some firms,' doesn't actually answer the question of why they've done this. All you're doing is suggesting that we should learn to expect VSL to become as bad as any other firm.
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I've been speaking out about this, and they're my first posts in months. Here - and in other forums - those of us scratching our heads and asking for answers are being portrayed as helpless whiners. Well, helpless I'm not. I head a fairly thriving little music production company, which my wife and I have nurtured and built over the years. We're active in our local business community, and we work with a committed, talented group of composers, sound designers and the like. When it comes to certain costs (capital expenditures, as my accountant calls them), we have to balance MANY needs. We also provide health insurance to our team (paying 100%). Costs are skyrocketing, and their health and well-being is more important than owning the latest and greatest sample library.
So, would I have LOVED to have been able to upgrade to VI already? Yes! But other priorites have interceded. To set those priorities, we used information we trusted. Had we known that VSL would rescind the very offer that played a part in my decision to invest in their product; had we known that at some future date the upgrade price would effectively double, we might have placed the upgrade higher on the priority list. I remember my wife saying specifically, "The health insurance is going up again and we had some unexpected repair costs. What can we cut from our spending plan?" I answered, "Well, as much as it pains me - the VSL upgrade is over $5,000.00, so we can wait a while longer. The upgrade price will still be there."
See where I'm going with this? If I offered my best clients a free session for spending a certain amount of money with us, never mentioning a deadline, then arbitrarily told them that they only have 3 months to use it - or they'll lose it - I would EXPECT them to be upset! If they ask why I'm suddenly putting a cutoff on the offer, they have every right to EXPECT a good answer, and I'd feel a responsibility to give them one.
That's the thing about the free enterprise system - there's no law that says you can't make a bad decision. Heaven knows I've made MY share. And that's all I'm saying. My opinion as a customer, and as a businessperson, is that VSL has made a bad decision here.
So, am I whining? Call it what you will. VSL doesn't owe me anything. And I don't have the time or inclination to pursue the matter further. I'll either be able to afford the upgrade during the (now) 6 month period or I won't. With the enormous expense of building a new studio looming, the timing's pretty lousy - but that's not VSL's problem, or their fault. I'll deal with it.
I just hate to see a company I admire so much make such a misstep. It's left a bad taste in my mouth, and - for the first time - has me listening to demos from the other guys.
Thanks for indulging my lengthy post.
Fred Story
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@Fred Story said:
We also provide health insurance to our team (paying 100%). I remember my wife saying specifically, "The health insurance is going up again and we had some unexpected repair costs. What can we cut from our spending plan?" Fred Story
Have you complained to the health insurance company about their rising prices? Have you gone onto their forum website and told them it's left a bad taste in your mouth? If not - why not?
None of you will get any sympathy from me - I happen to disagree with most people and if that rocks your boats - then tough sh!t.
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What does how one lives and how one pays their bills have anything to do with this thread?? And whether VSL are in it for the money or the glory, either or both is fine by me. However, if you chose to buy a specific car from three contenders you had in mind, and one of the clinchers was the fact that included in the €50000 price-tag were free services for the life of the car or the company, and one year later they said they actually decided to start charging for them, I bet you would not even look at your wallet to see how much money you had in there; you would consider this a breach of contract and with or without your lawyer you would shove your copy of their contract in their avaricious faces and demand the free service of your car. You wouldn't even ask them whether they are having financial difficulties or more children or whatever, and certainly would not whine at them about how you couldn't possibly afford that arbitrary new policy due to your circumstances, family, blah-blah-blah... Come on people! We do not need to explain ourselves, we have done nothing wrong, and we are not asking for discounts! We are asking what we are due; and if there is anyone that has to explain himself, that is not us. Best wishes, Errikos
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No, Paul. I haven't complained to my health insurance company. But then, they didn't tell me my premiums wouldn't go up - then raise them anyway...in which case I would have raised hell. (But we did switch to another provider who offered premiums we could better afford.) My point (poorly made apparently) was about keeping your word. Nothing else. I didn't ask for, nor do I want, your sympathy.
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@PaulR said:
None of you will get any sympathy from me - I happen to disagree with most people and if that rocks your boats - then tough sh!t.Noone asked for your sympathy - but noone asked for your opinion either. You seem to be a very irritable, immature little whiner, who just can't help picking fights for the sake of it, doesn't think things through, and can't see different angles to a problem. Most of us are here to ask VSL some questions - since you're not them nobody actually has any interest in your views.
Bottom line is their actions are quite simply wrong, and we'd like to know why. No amount of jumping up and down and saying that other people do it is going to make their actions right.
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@Fred Story said:
No, Paul. I haven't complained to my health insurance company. But then, they didn't tell me my premiums wouldn't go up - then raise them anyway...in which case I would have raised hell. (But we did switch to another provider who offered premiums we could better afford.) My point (poorly made apparently) was about keeping your word. Nothing else. I didn't ask for, nor do I want, your sympathy.
This thread - Fred - is not really about insurance or assurance. This thread is about people wanting a thing right now and not having enough money concurrent with imminent purchase. It's about 'wants' and not 'needs' - we talked on this years ago if I remember correctly.
That I can understand a lot more than the other lame excuses being bandied around. Currently in this bollocks of an excuse for a country, there are crocodile tears for low paid workers losing their 10% tax rate band.
Actually, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the tax band - it's an excuse for something entirely different which I won't bore you with. It's used as an EXCUSE.
You've got to understand that while I am on your side Fred in most things - no one cares about other people's financial beefs whatever the apparent reasons. The company always has to come first in my book - or there's no company.
The customer is always right has always been an ad man's load of bollocks since time began.
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@PaulR said:
None of you will get any sympathy from me - I happen to disagree with most people and if that rocks your boats - then tough sh!t.Noone asked for your sympathy - but noone asked for your opinion either. You seem to be a very irritable, immature little whiner, who just can't help picking fights for the sake of it, doesn't think things through, and can't see different angles to a problem. Most of us are here to ask VSL some questions - since you're not them nobody actually has any interest in your views.
Bottom line is their actions are quite simply wrong, and we'd like to know why. No amount of jumping up and down and saying that other people do it is going to make their actions right.
Pingu, when you post on a public forum, you make the discussion public. You have no right only to solicit opinions that agree with your own. When it's your own forum, then you can decide who posts what, and whether or not it should be deleted. Alternatively, you could take up your beef directly with VSL, rather than complaining on multiple forums about the same issue.
DG
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@Pingu said:
Bottom line is their actions are quite simply wrong, and we'd like to know why. No amount of jumping up and down and saying that other people do it is going to make their actions right.
IN_YOUR_OPINION.
Why the fuck should they tell you anything? Huh? Are they a listed company? I don't think so. Are you a shareholder? Well I don't believe you can be.
So where the fuck do get off making those sort of demands? And who the fuck is we?
If I decide to defend VSL because they understandably cannot - then that's my fucking decision - and if you don't like it - you can go and fuck yourself! And if you want me to repeat that face to face - be my guest!!!
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@PaulR said:
I'm sorry, but call me old-fashioned - I don't understand how some of the people on this thread know how to walk and breath at the same time - I mean - HOW do some of you ACTUALLY live? Huh? How do you manage to pay your bills. Beats me. . . . .Have you complained to the health insurance company about their rising prices? Have you gone onto their forum website and told them it's left a bad taste in your mouth? If not - why not?
None of you will get any sympathy from me - I happen to disagree with most people and if that rocks your boats - then tough sh!t.Paul:
It appears that, from your point of view, making promises and then breaking them without explanation is a good business model. I'd guess that most in the bvusiness world would strongly disagree. There was no fine print in VSL's advertising of the VIP program stating that it could be withdrawn at any time, rather what was emphasized that you were making a "lifetime investment" because purchase included the VIP program.
In every form of relationship, whether business or personal, making and then breaking promises without an adequate explanation
elicits distrust and anger - - and lawsuits. Moreover, one might construe VSL's original advertising to have the force of an implied contract. I might also say that your implication that those who hold views contrary to yours on this subject are out of touch with the way things are done in the real world is, among other things, inapt. Indeed, in the real world, were a similar situation to occur between two large corporations - - where one perceived the other as breaching an implied contract - - there might already be armies of attorneys beginning litigation over the issue.
Your comparison of the current situation with VSL and rising health insurance costs is an apples to oranges comparison. The general question of the cost of health insurance can only be addressed - - and it will be - - politically since it affects every member of society in countless ways. However, even in this instance, there is a question of contractual obligation between the insurer and insured. In a recent case, for example, an insurance company, Healthnet, cut off payments for the chemotherapy of a woman being treated for cancer. Contrary to the insurance company's expectations, the woman survived - - because her doctors refused to stop the treatments. She won a nine million dollar settlement from the insurance company.
I have the greatest respect for the folks at VSL, their products and their commitment to excellence - - but that does not mean that I (or anyone else) should stay silent when I (or they) think VSL is doing something likely to be self-defeating in the long run. Again, VSL's policy change does not affect me personally, so I really have no need of your sympathy.
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@DG said:
Pingu, when you post on a public forum, you make the discussion public. You have no right only to solicit opinions that agree with your own.Absolutely, which is why I'm entitled to respond to you in the same abbrasive manner that you employ in all of your posts. Dismissing your opinion seems to have rattled you rather quickly.
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I couldn't agree more, Paul. The way we make our buying decisions is of no consequence in this discussion. I only used it as an example. The point was, we rely on honest information from the people we spend our money with. If we don't get it - we'll buy from someone else. Plus, our relationship with VSL is different than the one we have with our health insurance company. I have NO affection for our health insurance company, while I have great affection for VSL. I wouldn't ask anyone to change their opinion...I'm just expressing mine. I understand all too well the concept of shifting economic realities and the need for a company to adapt to them. What about the idea of simply keeping your word? Is that a load of bollocks, too?
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Now things are getting out of hand. Why let this PaulR guy drag this thread anymore of topic? He is not contributing at all, neither way, to what we are trying to say. I, for one (naively enough) is trying to reach the VSL company, although the attempt problably won't do much good.
There have been quite a few responses to this thread, but I can't see to many asking for PaulR opinion in any of the relevant questions, but he has nevertheless been quite eager to state his mind. Which ofcourse is fine as this is an open forum. But when you, PaulR, start handing out insults it has gotten to a level which does not belong here at all.
Disappointingly enough (or should I say, "as expectet") it seems like VSL will block out the opinions of their customers, and just let this whole thing blow over.