Hi Erik,

don't worry about replying. I just loaded up the vsl player, and I realized that you were using cc2 as a patch controller, and I've worked out how to do it. 

best,

Steve[:D] 

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your compliments, but it is Frits Bayens, who made this arrangement, not me!

Furthermore: you could try out the orchestra strings instead of the chamber strings: it gives a more mellow sound.

regards,

Erik

 Hi Erik,

sorry, my mistake - what I was really meaning was your performance of the piece was great. I also think the arrangement by Frits Bayens was a great arrangement to work with also.

best,

Steve[:D] 

Hi Steve,

In this case: thank you of course!

I thought: why not do it myself, the version with the orchestra strings & appasionata strings SE (plus). 

Last changes (I just starting to feel now like a software designer, eliminating all kind of bugs, haha):

1. different rubato playing

2. added: Contrabass appasionata - sustain (this was an advice off the record from Beat Kaufmann, thanks for this Beat!)

3. added a warmifying plugin as last one in the chain of plugins

So here is version G: 

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowG.mp3

Just for the record: now we have : the midi file - Midibag (with pitch and speed parameter on, works only in my config with Tracktion as sequencer) - VSL SE - Origami (as 1st reverb tool) - and a little overall verb from Ambience, T-Racks24 does the rest.

TobyBear's Midibag is freeware, but a donation is always welcome by the way, check on http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html

Will this be the last & definite version of Over the rainbow? Come on readers..........post your comments again!

regards to all,

Erik

PS why not starting a kind of project in which readers of this forum and users of the VSL can show their capacities to others? So for example a nice classical piece, not too long, with many orchestral colouring possibilities (Moussorgsky, Ravel, Debussy???). All based on one and the same basic midi file (only notes). This could be a wonderful idea to share ideas! Anyone with me??

Hi Erik, well done on this piece, sounds great. Though I must say, I feel it's lost/losing something as you continue to try and refine it..Even comparing your version G with your first version, I feel something is lost..Sorry I'm being vague, haven't much time to analyse right now and it's only my personal opinion. But what what I can say for sure, is your first version was more delicate and soft and I felt this suited the piece, except for the overused portamento I didn't think it needed to much work..

The dynamics have certainly improved though, but I also noticed in later version the melody is getting buried in places too.

But feel free to disagree, I'm no expert either..just going by what my ears tell me :)

Hi SolarRain, nothing wrong with your ears, I think.

I certainly don't disagree with you on o.a. the issue of what you call "the melody is getting buried in places too".

However it was a challenge to implement several advises.

Hi Erik

It has become a very nice piece since the first published version, congratulation!

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Nevertheless, if you are willing to do something more try to improve the mix.

It seems to me that there are two orchestras which are playing - one on the left and one on

the right side. But I assume you want to have them as one orchestra.

My impressions while listening to your last version:

1. There is a gap between left and right

2. The violins are too "weak" or the basses (violas, cellos, basses) are too loud.

3. The balance cellos <> basses is in favour of the basses.

How to improve the left - right - gap?

a) leave the positions of the 1st violins and the cellos.

b) move the 2nd violins, the violas and maybe the double basses more to the centre.

How to improve the volume balance within the instruments?

a) Mute the 1st violins, the cellos and the double basses

b) Balance the volume between the 2nd Violins and the Violas

c) Add the cellos and try to find the balance for them

(don't touch the balance between the 2nd Violins and the Violas anymore)

d) Switch to solo cello then and add the basses to the cellos now.

Attention: increase the volume of the basses only a little. When you notice

them it could be to much already (Tip: Handle them as an effect ).

e) Switch on all the balanced instruments and check the result.

If necessary: Make fine adjustments.

f) Add now the first violins. They play the melody so they have to be the

leaders... the volume leaders as well. Increase the volume until they

have reach this leader-level (more is better than too little).

[;)] You will also find the procedure in my tutorials (audio)

(Step 2: Setting Levels, with pictures and an audio example...)

Good luck!

Beat Kaufmann

Hi Beat,

Who could resist your inspiring comments? Well, I couldn't. So here's the next attempt into a better level setting as well as improvements concerning the panning issue, at least I hope!

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowH.mp3

It seems more a homogeneous orchestra now in my ears. If I am right: thanks again Beat! Please continue with your (also time saving!!) comments if you think that there is still a disbalance in this close harmony piece.

Beat, why don't you start a service via your site offering to solve these kind of matters for clients: "What's wrong with my mix?" Beat helps you out!

Anyway, I won't forget all other contributions here and I am very grateful to have such inspiring comments from all others.

regards, Erik

@Erik said:

Hi Beat,

Who could resist your inspiring comments? ...thanks again Beat! Please continue with your (also time saving!!) comments if you think that there is still a disbalance in this close harmony piece. Beat, why don't you start a service via your site offering to solve these kind of matters for clients: "What's wrong with my mix?" Beat helps you out!

Charming Erik 

[:$] 

@Erik said:

It seems more a homogeneous orchestra now in my ears. Please continue with your (also time saving!!) comments if you think that there is still a disbalance in this close harmony piece.

Hi Erik

Congratulation once more! You are a very good student [:)].

If you do the first mix in the upper way you have a good starting point for further "experiments".

I don't know how much you "monoized" each section (1st viols, 2nd viols etc.). If you pan 

instruments to the extremes - left or right - you can reduce this monoizing effect a bit.

And why? Take the the 1st violins for example. They will get back their "stereo image" even if they

are on the left.

You asked for further comments. Here is one more:

In the current mp3 version you have a difference of ca. 1dB between the left and the right channel (RMS, average).

This is not an enormous value but increase the volume of the left channel + 1dB in an audio editor and your orchestra

will sound even better...

All the best

Beat 

Hi Beat,

Before I'm going to enjoy the lovely weather here in Holland I wanted to let you know the latest changes. That means: I implemented the Stereo Tools (Kelly Industries, as downloaded after reading your tutorial, for other readers: http://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/index.html) on the Vl.2, Vla and the Cb tracks. So it is a bit the other way around: I monoïzed these tracks just to let the Vl1. and Vlc. as they are, so these tracks are not affected stereo image in the sequencer settings. Is this a correct procedure? In most orchestras fill Vl.1 and Vlc a great part of the whole stage from left to right (in a way), whereas the Vl.2 and Vla are more centered. I guess this is what you meant?!

Here is the result (with slightly more melody after all):

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowH2.mp3

I hope that both channels are better balanced now, of course depending on the degree of cresecendo or decrescendo there might be some difference of course sometimes.

Enjoy this day!

regards, Erik 

PS If you think that this arrangement is fine now I'll upload a definite version with audience/hall noise and a huge applause as sampled and available in your tutorial file, OK?[:D]

Hi Erik

We have got this lovely weather in switzerland  as well so I know what you are talking about.

Yes, enjoy it! I'm doing it too.

You asked: "Is this a correct procedure?". There are many ways to get a good

sound. If the listeners (and you) are happy you - obviously - selected a correct procedure.

Further: The procedure also depends on the audio material, you know.

About the balance between channels:

You are absolutely right that the volume balance of the two stereo channels is a

"dynamic matter" so that the channels always have different levels.

Nevertheless, a higher average of the level (over all) in one channel can be

worth concidering in any case. 

Erik, I'm looking forward to the audience version. [H]

Have a nice day 

Beat 

Hi Beat,

Here comes your favourite:

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowH2-audience.mp3 

But "Don't shoot the arranger!"

Erik

[Y][Y][Y]

It seems to me that this performance has been recorded during the winter months in 2006...in

the town church of Brugg  [;)]

Thanks for adding the audience of "my" town... so no shots today...

Beat 

@Ed Kerr said:

...I would be most grateful for any help you could provide and look forward to hearing from you.Thank you for your time-Ed Kerr

Hello Ed Kerr

You listen to nice demos, then you purchase the samples and... why on earth, damn, what a shame...

At first glance: It is not as easy as it seems to be  to create music with samples.

There are so much you have to know about "producing music with samples". 

Knowledges...

- around midi

- around instruments (the real ones)

- around the samples in general (articulations, possibilities, dificultes,..)

- around the appassionatas

- around the audio part

- around sound effects

- around the audio mix 

... 

You are interested in...?

Another possibility: 

Publish a short mp3 example with an accompanying text: "I'm not happy with... how can I reach... how can I improve..."

Best, 

Beat Kaufmann

This thread has been fascinating.  I’ve really enjoyed reading it and learning from it.  I’d like to make sure I have the most recent MIDI file of Over the Rainbow.  Also, I’d like to try it with just Appassionata Strings.  Like Ed Kerr, I would also like some specific help with making my sampled performances breathe a little more realistically.  I don’t need to deal with mixing issues because this performance consists of backgrounds that will be part of a larger mix on a CD that will include piano and other live instruments.  However, I would like to get the dynamics and xfades and attacks better.  I only have Appassionata Strings for this project.  I have Horizon 1 and 2 on a Giga computer but don’t want to use them if I don’t’ have to.  If I could, I’d like to show a sixteen bar example of two melodic lines, one for violins and one for celli and ask people to comment on how I could get them to sound more lush and life-like.  Where can I place the file?  How did musesamples.com work?  Is there somewhere else I could put the demo file for people to look at/work on? 

            Last, I am a blind person and want to keep certain aspects of this as physically convenient as I can make them.  I use Sonar 7 and usually use four instances of V I for my vln1, vln2, VLA and VC.  Hope that can work for everyone.  In the case of the files I’m working on, I usually use the 4-vel versions of each instrument with occasionally switches to perf legato speed.  These are rare.  Maybe a different combination of matrices might be necessary.  

            Any help would be very much appreciated. 

Best,

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for your positive comment on this thread. Just for the moment now: I have put all mp3 files on the server of musesamples.com (which is by the way a fantastic virtual guitar library/vst plugin site), but to keep things here in the right place and proportions: there are several ways of uploading your files to a free server, just check the internet ( fill in at Google: "free mp3 upload"). So this might be a way to show your own mp3's to others.

Later on I hope to manage a more profound answer (most recent midi file etc.), but, as mentioned before, I don't own the full Appassionata strings! So maybe others can help you with this. Good luck for now,

regards

Erik Otte

Erik,

            Do I understand your controller settings correctly?

1. Your sustain is set between 0 and 10?
2. Your legato is set between 11 and 67
3. Your portamento is set to 68?

If this is wrong, please correct me. 

     Also, when you say your velocity crossfaddes are all CC1, what are you fading between?  How exactly do you make the held notes crescendo and decrescendo with realistic dynamics? 

Thanks,

Kevin

Hi Kevin,

The CC1 controller settings are as you mention here.

I made the held notes crescendo and decrescendo as realistic as possible with the specific CC1 in my SE plus version: there is a Xfade between (mostly) 2 layers in these instruments (except for the portamento).

Furthermore I used of course a tweaked attack and moreover release inputs.

Bye, Erik