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  4. Using the Wii to play VSL in real time
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    Hi Christof,

    I'm certainly not responding to your post to speak on behalf of Paul H. Smith, but I do want to mention something about the Wii Remote in regards to what you said, because you use VSL and think its an outstanding tool.  I agree with you!  However, as we all know VSL does not work all on its own.  In addition to VSL you need a computer, audio output, speakers (or at least headphones), a sequencer (if you want to hear more parts than you can play yourself), and I think most people use some sort of midi keyboard.  I like to call these things as a whole the INTERFACE.  The interface between you (the human) and the vibrations in the air that hit your ears.  Your instrument is an interface, language is an interface, some might even argue that our body is an interface.  I think its fair to say, the more understanding, control, and sensitivity a person develops with an interface the more likely we are to call that person talented.  Even if the results they produce on that interface may appear displeasing to or may not be understood by some, the fact remains that they can produce and replicate those results many times over when others on the same interface can not.  It still means that particular person is talented.  I'm getting a little off track here, but the point is that humans want desperately to be expressive and want other people to feel that expression.

    However, there is always an interface between those two boundaries, and it has to be reckoned with if communication/expression is going to take place. Now we've all accepted the computer/digital interfaces between our musical desires and the results coming out of the speakers.  Some of us are better than others at that interface, because they've discovered how to translate their expressiveness through the interface.  Most of the time this has to be learned though hours of experimentation and practice.  However, there are some things the body (because its an interface that is closer connected to the brain) is just naturally more expressive at than our digital interfaces.  As a musician I'm sure you can relate to that!  I believe conducting is one of those things.

    I don't know about you, but if I could conduct in my tempo maps rather than draw them in by hand, I would jump at the opportunity because I know I can be more expressive with my body in that way, than by drawing with my mouse on the computer.   I think the Wii Remote has the potential to let more of the humanness into our digital music worlds because it relies on body motion.  Notice I say potential, but I think Paul H. Smith is seeing that potential and doing some really good experiments to make our sampled music more expressive.  So I don't look at it as trying to replace real musicians, but the Wii is just further developments in human digital interfaces.  Lots of great stuff!  Ok I'll stop now as I think I've gone on probably a little to much.  [:D]

    Brian 
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    I think that the advantages or disadvantages of using the Wii to control tempo is dependant on what sequencer you use. With Logic it is probably very useful. With Cubase, not really.

    DG
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    Basically everything that can be done with a Wii controller can be also done by moving faders on a control surface. Technically spoken.

    But artistically it makes a difference if you have something really "in your hand", especially with audio feedback and playing in realtime. After a while you come into a musicians' mode instead of a programmers' mode. If you combine different parameters with different axes then you begin to link certain sounds to certain "gestures". Which is definetely something very different than drawing cc parameters with a mouse. This is the point for me where it begins to really be like playing an instrument.

    I use Wii control, graphic tablet, data glove. And yes, the result can be emotional, why shouldn't it.
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    I should add that of course for me it still is more easy to control six or seven parameters in realtime on a real instrument than on a virtual, and also it has more options soundwise (I am a professional violinist). But I do not see that it will "never be like the real thing". Virtual instruments will probably be even more expressive than physical instruments somedays ... if we players can handle them.
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    Absolutely. And if you look at how far we've come in the last 10 years alone, I'd say it's inevitable. Obviously, the real point is that it will never *be* "the real thing", but rather will be something all its own... The "real thing" is in no need of a replacement.

    Personally, I'm excited about this sort of thing as a composition tool, offering a more intuitive way to guide and shape a compositional/improvisational process with the VIs. That's the sort of thing that interests me.

    J.
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    The talk of "replacement" is a canard. You must realize that the rainbow of musical expression is ever-expanding. VSL and its instruments are merely a part of that expansion of the palette of musical instruments that has been going on at least since that Neanderthal made his bone flute some 40,000 years ago.



    I haven't replaced you, or anyone else. It's quite silly even to think in those terms. I'm a musician; you're a musician. You make money with your cello ... I with my Wii. The important thing is the musical experiences that result. The world of musical possibilities is so large and is expanding so rapidly that there is room for both of us.

    Remember ...

    The cello did not replace the viola da gamba.

    The piano did not replace the harpsichord.

    The radio did not replace the concert hall.

    The electric guitar did not replace the acoustic guitar.

    Casals recordings don't replace Yo-Yo Ma recordings.

    And so, the digital orchestra does not replace anything either. It is simply adding. History and current practice proves this.

    Let's not be concerned about the false distinction between "real" and "virtual," while at the same time accepting every single CD as "real" even though it is 100% digital. Musicians concerned about "replacement" rarely attack ballet companies for using pianos in their rehearsals - they did not attack Liszt for transcribing Beethoven's symphonies for piano - they also do not decry the giant music labels for selling recordings by long-dead performers. No, we only seem to hear from them when computers are involved ... and even then, only when classical music is involved.

    So, if you construe the "replacement" idea more broadly and look at the aspects of musical production and consumption that really do have an affect on the livelihood of living musicians, it's clear that digital orchestras are so far at the bottom of the list of "threats" that it's not even funny. Von Karajan and Bernstein recordings far outsell all digital orchestra recordings, for example. Do you protest that listeners might prefer von Karajan and Bernstein CDs to those by Zinman and Dudamel? Are those CDs by dead performers taking money away from the living ones, - Of course they are NOT. And that is my point: The pie is expanding. We have Karajan AND Dudamel. It's not either/or. The more Karajan there is out there, the more people emerge who also will want to hear Dudamel. Hard to understand? Maybe. But that seems to be the way it works.

    It helps to remember that musical experiences happen only in the minds of listeners. Those minds don't care one whit whether the experiences arise from a cello, the mind itself (e.g. in the case of a deaf Beethoven), a synthesizer, an orchestra, an iPod, a gamelan, or what. That musical experiences can arise from digital instruments is only going to be proven over and over again. Fighting it and denying it is not going to change that. It's time to realize that the validity or value of musical experiences is not and never has been tied to the means of sonic production. Once you understand that, and once you understand the seemingly infinite possibilities for the expansion of musical expression, you can see developments like VSL in the proper historical and musical context: as positive enhancements for human creativity and for access to that creativity. The pie is expanding, and that's a good thing.

    - Paul
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    @Hannes_F said:

    I should add that of course for me it still is more easy to control six or seven parameters in realtime on a real instrument than on a virtual, and also it has more options soundwise (I am a professional violinist). But I do not see that it will "never be like the real thing". Virtual instruments will probably be even more expressive than physical instruments somedays ... if we players can handle them.

    I can totally relate to this. And consider that most of those posting as "professional" violinists or cellists have probably been practicing for tens of thousands of hours to get to the point of it being "easy" to play. But how many of us have been playing virtual or digital instruments since age 4? When we have that generation out and about making music we'll see the mooting of this distinction.
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    @Another User said:

    And consider that most of those posting as "professional" violinists or cellists have probably been practicing for tens of thousands of hours to get to the point of it being "easy" to play. But how many of us have been playing virtual or digital instruments since age 4? When we have that generation out and about making music we'll see the mooting of this distinction.

    I have been practicing my instrument for thousands and thousands of hours to become as good as possible, even now I have to train like a sports man ,otherwise I loose quality in even one day!

    The VI is an instrument in some way if you want, I started 'playing' it about 6 months ago, and without beeing arrogant I can say that after this short amount of time I am able to produce professional sounding music with it.Have a listen to my demos on this site.I am not proud of them because they will never sound like the real thing,I am just getting close to it.

    The difficulty of playing between the VI and my cello is not comparable.

    The VI will allways remain a great composing and production tool,even with a Wii remote(wich is actually a smart idea).

    I respect your project as an art form, don't take me wrong!

    christof 
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    @Another User said:

    If I play a phrase on my cello I use maybe 20 parameters,maybe 50,or 200,it depends on my emotional and physical situation in this moment,and don't forget the emotional interaction with other musicians when I play together with them.That makes the big big difference.

    I understand where you are coming from. But somedays virtual instruments will react to 20, 50 or 200 parameters as well. This question is not about certain numbers. Maybe VIs will react even to thought via brain voltage etc. And why exclude emotional interaction with other musicians for VIs?

    I think that philosophically you are putting together virtual instruments with the question of artificial intelligence and emotional robots. These are different questions.

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    @Another User said:

    I think that philosophically you are putting together virtual instruments with the question of artificial intelligence and emotional robots. These are different questions.

    Yes, Hannes_F, that may be what Christof is doing. Otherwise he is not making any sense at all. Imagine actually believing that the quality of musical experience is somehow tied to the number of parameters, or the number of hours spent preparing! We'd all now be performance gurus by that measure! And don't forget that the cello is itself technology.


    Remember, technology is not trying to play music. People are playing the music. This is not a reproducing technology. It's a creative technology that is taking as its point of departure the attempt to imitate orchestral instruments.


    This is a phase. It will be followed by a flowering of creativity producing music that could never be played by real orchestras. This is no different from, say, the electric guitar. Django Reinhardt, for all his amazing musicianship, played the electric guitar as an amplified acoustic guitar. He did not anticipate where Jimi Hendrix would take us.


    I believe this approach to the expansion of the musical palette of expression (the approach starting with mimesis) is going to be successful because it starts with what we already know to work -- as a result of over 400 years of instrument development, composition and performance practice. It doesn't ignore that and try to be "new" like so many experimental musical instruments. Because of this, musicians and composers who happen to accidentally live in this moment of history can partake in the next evolutionary step. In the probably not so distant future composers and performers will have gotten beyond this point (and it will probably be forgotten in the dust), as they make music we probably can't even imagine now.


    It's very exciting to be a part of the centuries-old, grand tradition of the expansion of musical expression. Thanks, again, to the genius of the folks at VSL (and their ilk around the world).
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    @Hannes_F said:

    I think that philosophically you are putting together virtual instruments with the question of artificial intelligence and emotional robots. These are different questions.
     

    My question  has only philosophical background,sure.

    Maybe one day the technical development will be advanced enough to simulate the real thing.

    But I think people want to see and hear living people on stage, just imagine a soccer game with 22 robots playing a match...boring, even if they would play better than humans.

    I totally understand what you and Paul mean, but if he conducts a Beethoven symphony played by a virtual orchestra I can't take it serious, it may be very interesting and spectacular, but there will allways be the lack of human spirit.

    But my respect anyway!

    christof 
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    The irony of all this, is that if and when is possible to replace a real violin with a sampled version, for example, there would still need to be detailed knowledge of the intricacies for that particular instrument, which in a way would defeat the object of using a sample. I certainly don't have this sort of knowledge about every instrument in the orchestra....!

    However, with any sort of rendering of music, the performer or programmer has to have a high degree of knowledge and musicality, so the best programmers for strings are likely as not to be string players.

    Regarding the conducting of a sampled orchestra there may be a way in the future to allow the individual instruments to read a few parameters, but as far as I can see, it will always require detailed, advance programming, so the best that is happening is that the "conductor" is acting as a glorified metronome and swell pedal for the whole ensemble.

    DG
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    @Christof Unterberger said:

    I totally understand what you and Paul mean, but if he conducts a Beethoven symphony played by a virtual orchestra I can't take it serious, it may be very interesting and spectacular, but there will allways be the lack of human spirit.

    Human spirit.  I think you can express yourself using virtual/digital instruments and you can express yourself using analogue/"real" instruments.  It is not fair to say one is better than the other at expressing music and therefore our spirit within.  For example I play keyboard and guitar - the fact that my piano only responds to a key press and yet with my guitar strings can be bent, plucked, (bowed if you really want) with vibrato, without vibrato etc doesn't mean I can't express myself equally well with either instrument.  So why can't I express myself using a virtual orchestra I can - maybe I can't have the exact level of control over it as I could with a real cello,horn or sax but I am still expressing myself and the music, virtual as it maybe is still real and can convey mood, sentiment and spirit.

    Best

    Tim
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    @DG said:

    I think that the advantages or disadvantages of using the Wii to control tempo is dependant on what sequencer you use. With Logic it is probably very useful. With Cubase, not really.

     

    DG

    DG, Could you please explain? I'm currently using DP4.6. Do DP is well adapted to use Wii? Thanks
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    Well,if you play your keyboard or guitar it is still you as human beeing who controls your instrument in real time, like I do it with my cello or whatever.

    We have to make a difference between virtuality and reality.

    Actually I don't know exactly how Paul is going to conduct a whole orchestra with his Wii remote, but according to what I read and saw it still needs some programming work before.

    In this case he will not be able to reach the same expressions and spontaneous 'magic' moments as a real conductor will be able to do with a well prepared orchestra.Thats what makes the difference in my opinion.

    To sumn up the discussion and my point of view(maybe my bad english caused some misunderstandings before):

    It will never be possible to replace a performing artist by a machine, even if some day they can do it, nobody really wants to go to a concert and listen to a performance executed by a virtual orchestra coming out from loudspeakers.

    It is an interesting experiment, not more. 

    At the beginning of the discussion I just wanted to ask Paul if he thinks that this kind of 'performace' has a future. 

    Please tell me if I'm wrong.

     christof
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    Christof,

    I am all your opinion if you want to say that playing a real string instrument is a unique experience, and I think we both would wish that more people could share that. A good real string instrument has a sparkling richness in timbre and a responsiveness in emotion that hardly can matched by any electronic version.

    Still.

    I am really jealous of singers for their ability to sing different vocals and consonants. I really do my best to have the same richness in variation on my violin but still the pallette of a singer is bigger. So when technology opens a way to make the violin sound even more expressive interesting and diversified I am the first on this boat. (BTW conventional electrical violins are not the solution because their pallette is much narrower than the acoustical instrument).

    What Paul has demonstrated is a step into that direction - controlling only one or two aspects of performance in realtime so far. But I regard it as a demonstration of the idea that great things are possible, among them really flooring interpretations of classical masterpieces (but beyond that).

    And ... of course that will include live performance.
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    Wow I thought that was pretty cool. I'm a video gamer as well as a music producer, but I never thought I'd see "Wii" in any of the thread topics here. That's really cool... Isn't there a game on the Nintendo Wii where you have to do exactly that though? I don't remember what it's called but I know I've seen it around before.

    Christof, I understand what you're saying, but VSL and other libraries do exactly that.. .or try. (sort of replacing the art with a computer.) but it does a good job and is really useful as you stated. And we never know, it may take years... decades maybe, but they could oneday be at least 99% realistic... as for the robots with human-like personalities and feelings, if someone can develop the AI to do it, then all you'd need is a body for it but that's going in a whole different direction.

    Anyhow, that was really cool. It's just one more reason why the Nintendo Wii is better than every other system out right now.... Now let's try doing that with a PS3 6-axis controller... not. Well anyhow, nice job. 
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    @DG said:

    I think that the advantages or disadvantages of using the Wii to control tempo is dependant on what sequencer you use. With Logic it is probably very useful. With Cubase, not really.

    DG

    DG, Could you please explain? I'm currently using DP4.6. Do DP is well adapted to use Wii? Thanks

    It's not so much a question of DP and Wii, it's more of a question that DP has better ways of calculating tempos than Logic, so the Wii may not be of so much use in regard to tempo.

    DG
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    Christof,

    I think I understand your points. To some extent I even agree. Currently there is no comparison between a digital orchestra and a real one in a live performance (unless the real one really sucks and the digital one is very good).

    To be clear: I'm not interested in replacing human performance with machine performance. However, people will and do go hear orchestra music in concert halls emanating from speakers. Tanglewood, for example. I can't base my own artistic goals on what people will or will not do. Who cares!

    Lastly, I think it's just a bit over-reaching for you to simply pronounce these things "interesting experiments, not more." One could say the same of Glenn Gould's work, Beethoven's Bagatelles, Der Kunst der Fuge, etc., etc. We're looking at what is becoming possible. Is it yet possible? Perhaps not. But that doesn't mean it won't be.

    It would be nice if performers could embrace the continuing expansion of the musical palette. But not all of them want to accept the inevitable. That's okay, but please let the rest of us try without heaping your a priori, unilateral designations of as-yet-unperformed efforts as something inferior to what you might be able to produce with your own choice of performance technology (i.e, your cello).

    As always, the proof will be in the mind of the listeners. Not on this forum.
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    Hey Paul Henry, Beautiful demo ! I am Camille, the writer of OSCulator. I try to send you a message on this site, but I seems like the forum is broken … Could you please write me at camille [at] osculator.net? I have a question! Thanks, Cam