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  4. Using the Wii to play VSL in real time
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    Paul,

    This is a brilliant idea. Not only for conducting classes, where a direct "control" over the music is possible (instead of using a CD), but also just as a tempo controller for rubato. Very natural. I'm sure this could be taken even further on... maybe some institutions would be interested in that, considering its low cost and effectiveness. At least, I am. Thanks for sharing that with us!

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    Hm... also viewed the baton test video partially - do you actually exaggerate at some point where one could believe it would be completely random conductor thoughts? Interesting idea though to connect various parameters to one controller...

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    @PolarBear said:

    Hm... also viewed the baton test video partially - do you actually exaggerate at some point where one could believe it would be completely random conductor thoughts? Interesting idea though to connect various parameters to one controller...



    I don't really understand your question. Sorry.

    BTW, regarding "connecting various parameters to one controller" ... well, it's really multiple controllers on one device. In other words, three axes of motion can be mapped to three different controllers. Also, the various buttons on the controller can be mapped not only to MIDI notes (for VI keyswitching, for example), but also can be mapped to commands controlling the host software, such as "stop" and "rewind" and "play." On top of this, the various sensitivities can all be adjusted (indeed, must be adjusted) according to the demands of a particular piece of music, and conducting style. This is all done with off-the-shelf software and hardware (Wii, OSCulator, Logic and VI).

    I now use this setup in real-world commercial projects. For instance, I just finished a CD for a soloist in which he is accompanied in real-time in the recording studio. You can see some of that on the video on the Fauxharmonic home page. I can't tell you how amazing it is to have the ENTIRE orchestral setup (computer, VSL, etc, etc.) all hidden away from the soloist ... and all we have to do is simply play the music.

    Unfortunately, of course, I can't use any frozen tracks. So, I'm always dangerously close to getting the dreaded pops and clicks associated with pushing disc, RAM and processors to their limits. But, having used VSL since 2003, I am confident we will continue to see swift increases in computing power. So, it's now just a matter of money and/or time (wait, time = money, so I guess just "money") before real-time performance without using VI "optimized" tracks or frozen audio tracks -- and having a full orchestra on hand -- will be the standard work-horse of my studio. (Anyone could do this now, given enough money, and I would be happy to help set it up, if you like.)

    In November I'll be conducting a performance of the 2007 adagio contest winning piece, live in concert at Barge Music in NYC. And after that, it's the Beethoven symphonies! So, the dream of the digital orchestra becoming an actual musical instrument, as opposed to only a non-real-time studio production tool, is being realized!
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    Brian,

    Yes, I use the OSCulator program. But I don't have much need for KYMA, so I just use the MIDI part of OSCulator. (Plus, one has to pay $$ for KYMA.)

    To tell the truth, I have forgotten what's mapped to what (I'm out of town now, but I'll review it and send you a note when I get back). Also, in Logic itself the signals from OSCulator are also run through various transformers, and then those are also run through VI instances where different cutoff points are set up to delineate different triggers. And, those parameters, controlled by, say, controller-1, have different response curves drawn into the VI interface so it's not always a linear scale being followed. Using key commands sent to Logic (via the Wii), I can also switch to different sets of all of these things in real time as the piece is playing. But, if I do that, I get royally confused, so I try to avoid having to do that.

    In general, the more I can work out in advance (e.g., in terms of balance, articulation choice, etc.) the better ... leaving only a few parameters to be controlled in real time. The most important things to have control over are tempo, loudness and starting and stopping (e.g., fermatas). Zillions of other things "could" be controlled also, but having to keep track of them and even understand what's happening only gets in the way of playing music. So, I avoid complexity there. Feel free to contact me privately if you want more details.
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    As 'real' orchestra and chamber music musician I have to ask you:

    for what reason are you doing this?

    Investing months or even years for something that NEVER will sound like a real musician.

    It is spectacularly indeed, but in my opinion only for a circus show.

    I just read an online article at www.spiegel.de

    about your project, and I can't agree with it,it even made me smile.

    But thats maybe because playing Cello is my profession and I studied it for many many years and now I earn good money with it, and somebody like you tries to replace our performing art with a computer?

    Or is it just for fun, then I excuse myself for my recent words.

    VSL is an outstanding product and a breathtaking composing and production tool, thats for sure, I use it for my compositions and I love it, I even recorded samples for them, but there will never be a product (either from VSL or another company ) that can replace a real musician to 100%,like there will never be a robot with real human feelings, and I think we all are very happy about that!

    anyway, have fun and good luck with your project!

    christof

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    No,of course VSL is not putting up a circus show, I believe that Herb's vision was to create a great orchestra tool to approach  to a real orchestra, not to replace a real orchestra or real musicians(He even is a musician as well).

    I just wanted to know if Paul has the intention to replace us real musicians.

    In this case he will never be able to do this.

    But maybe he doesn't want to simulate the real thing.

    I am just curious.

    It's like the robot with real human emotions, never ever! 

    No hard feelings either;-)

    christof 
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    Hi Christof,

    I'm certainly not responding to your post to speak on behalf of Paul H. Smith, but I do want to mention something about the Wii Remote in regards to what you said, because you use VSL and think its an outstanding tool.  I agree with you!  However, as we all know VSL does not work all on its own.  In addition to VSL you need a computer, audio output, speakers (or at least headphones), a sequencer (if you want to hear more parts than you can play yourself), and I think most people use some sort of midi keyboard.  I like to call these things as a whole the INTERFACE.  The interface between you (the human) and the vibrations in the air that hit your ears.  Your instrument is an interface, language is an interface, some might even argue that our body is an interface.  I think its fair to say, the more understanding, control, and sensitivity a person develops with an interface the more likely we are to call that person talented.  Even if the results they produce on that interface may appear displeasing to or may not be understood by some, the fact remains that they can produce and replicate those results many times over when others on the same interface can not.  It still means that particular person is talented.  I'm getting a little off track here, but the point is that humans want desperately to be expressive and want other people to feel that expression.

    However, there is always an interface between those two boundaries, and it has to be reckoned with if communication/expression is going to take place. Now we've all accepted the computer/digital interfaces between our musical desires and the results coming out of the speakers.  Some of us are better than others at that interface, because they've discovered how to translate their expressiveness through the interface.  Most of the time this has to be learned though hours of experimentation and practice.  However, there are some things the body (because its an interface that is closer connected to the brain) is just naturally more expressive at than our digital interfaces.  As a musician I'm sure you can relate to that!  I believe conducting is one of those things.

    I don't know about you, but if I could conduct in my tempo maps rather than draw them in by hand, I would jump at the opportunity because I know I can be more expressive with my body in that way, than by drawing with my mouse on the computer.   I think the Wii Remote has the potential to let more of the humanness into our digital music worlds because it relies on body motion.  Notice I say potential, but I think Paul H. Smith is seeing that potential and doing some really good experiments to make our sampled music more expressive.  So I don't look at it as trying to replace real musicians, but the Wii is just further developments in human digital interfaces.  Lots of great stuff!  Ok I'll stop now as I think I've gone on probably a little to much.  [:D]

    Brian 
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    I think that the advantages or disadvantages of using the Wii to control tempo is dependant on what sequencer you use. With Logic it is probably very useful. With Cubase, not really.

    DG
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    Basically everything that can be done with a Wii controller can be also done by moving faders on a control surface. Technically spoken.

    But artistically it makes a difference if you have something really "in your hand", especially with audio feedback and playing in realtime. After a while you come into a musicians' mode instead of a programmers' mode. If you combine different parameters with different axes then you begin to link certain sounds to certain "gestures". Which is definetely something very different than drawing cc parameters with a mouse. This is the point for me where it begins to really be like playing an instrument.

    I use Wii control, graphic tablet, data glove. And yes, the result can be emotional, why shouldn't it.
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    I should add that of course for me it still is more easy to control six or seven parameters in realtime on a real instrument than on a virtual, and also it has more options soundwise (I am a professional violinist). But I do not see that it will "never be like the real thing". Virtual instruments will probably be even more expressive than physical instruments somedays ... if we players can handle them.
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    Absolutely. And if you look at how far we've come in the last 10 years alone, I'd say it's inevitable. Obviously, the real point is that it will never *be* "the real thing", but rather will be something all its own... The "real thing" is in no need of a replacement.

    Personally, I'm excited about this sort of thing as a composition tool, offering a more intuitive way to guide and shape a compositional/improvisational process with the VIs. That's the sort of thing that interests me.

    J.
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    The talk of "replacement" is a canard. You must realize that the rainbow of musical expression is ever-expanding. VSL and its instruments are merely a part of that expansion of the palette of musical instruments that has been going on at least since that Neanderthal made his bone flute some 40,000 years ago.



    I haven't replaced you, or anyone else. It's quite silly even to think in those terms. I'm a musician; you're a musician. You make money with your cello ... I with my Wii. The important thing is the musical experiences that result. The world of musical possibilities is so large and is expanding so rapidly that there is room for both of us.

    Remember ...

    The cello did not replace the viola da gamba.

    The piano did not replace the harpsichord.

    The radio did not replace the concert hall.

    The electric guitar did not replace the acoustic guitar.

    Casals recordings don't replace Yo-Yo Ma recordings.

    And so, the digital orchestra does not replace anything either. It is simply adding. History and current practice proves this.

    Let's not be concerned about the false distinction between "real" and "virtual," while at the same time accepting every single CD as "real" even though it is 100% digital. Musicians concerned about "replacement" rarely attack ballet companies for using pianos in their rehearsals - they did not attack Liszt for transcribing Beethoven's symphonies for piano - they also do not decry the giant music labels for selling recordings by long-dead performers. No, we only seem to hear from them when computers are involved ... and even then, only when classical music is involved.

    So, if you construe the "replacement" idea more broadly and look at the aspects of musical production and consumption that really do have an affect on the livelihood of living musicians, it's clear that digital orchestras are so far at the bottom of the list of "threats" that it's not even funny. Von Karajan and Bernstein recordings far outsell all digital orchestra recordings, for example. Do you protest that listeners might prefer von Karajan and Bernstein CDs to those by Zinman and Dudamel? Are those CDs by dead performers taking money away from the living ones, - Of course they are NOT. And that is my point: The pie is expanding. We have Karajan AND Dudamel. It's not either/or. The more Karajan there is out there, the more people emerge who also will want to hear Dudamel. Hard to understand? Maybe. But that seems to be the way it works.

    It helps to remember that musical experiences happen only in the minds of listeners. Those minds don't care one whit whether the experiences arise from a cello, the mind itself (e.g. in the case of a deaf Beethoven), a synthesizer, an orchestra, an iPod, a gamelan, or what. That musical experiences can arise from digital instruments is only going to be proven over and over again. Fighting it and denying it is not going to change that. It's time to realize that the validity or value of musical experiences is not and never has been tied to the means of sonic production. Once you understand that, and once you understand the seemingly infinite possibilities for the expansion of musical expression, you can see developments like VSL in the proper historical and musical context: as positive enhancements for human creativity and for access to that creativity. The pie is expanding, and that's a good thing.

    - Paul
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    @Hannes_F said:

    I should add that of course for me it still is more easy to control six or seven parameters in realtime on a real instrument than on a virtual, and also it has more options soundwise (I am a professional violinist). But I do not see that it will "never be like the real thing". Virtual instruments will probably be even more expressive than physical instruments somedays ... if we players can handle them.

    I can totally relate to this. And consider that most of those posting as "professional" violinists or cellists have probably been practicing for tens of thousands of hours to get to the point of it being "easy" to play. But how many of us have been playing virtual or digital instruments since age 4? When we have that generation out and about making music we'll see the mooting of this distinction.
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    @Another User said:

    And consider that most of those posting as "professional" violinists or cellists have probably been practicing for tens of thousands of hours to get to the point of it being "easy" to play. But how many of us have been playing virtual or digital instruments since age 4? When we have that generation out and about making music we'll see the mooting of this distinction.

    I have been practicing my instrument for thousands and thousands of hours to become as good as possible, even now I have to train like a sports man ,otherwise I loose quality in even one day!

    The VI is an instrument in some way if you want, I started 'playing' it about 6 months ago, and without beeing arrogant I can say that after this short amount of time I am able to produce professional sounding music with it.Have a listen to my demos on this site.I am not proud of them because they will never sound like the real thing,I am just getting close to it.

    The difficulty of playing between the VI and my cello is not comparable.

    The VI will allways remain a great composing and production tool,even with a Wii remote(wich is actually a smart idea).

    I respect your project as an art form, don't take me wrong!

    christof 
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    @Another User said:

    If I play a phrase on my cello I use maybe 20 parameters,maybe 50,or 200,it depends on my emotional and physical situation in this moment,and don't forget the emotional interaction with other musicians when I play together with them.That makes the big big difference.

    I understand where you are coming from. But somedays virtual instruments will react to 20, 50 or 200 parameters as well. This question is not about certain numbers. Maybe VIs will react even to thought via brain voltage etc. And why exclude emotional interaction with other musicians for VIs?

    I think that philosophically you are putting together virtual instruments with the question of artificial intelligence and emotional robots. These are different questions.

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    @Another User said:

    I think that philosophically you are putting together virtual instruments with the question of artificial intelligence and emotional robots. These are different questions.

    Yes, Hannes_F, that may be what Christof is doing. Otherwise he is not making any sense at all. Imagine actually believing that the quality of musical experience is somehow tied to the number of parameters, or the number of hours spent preparing! We'd all now be performance gurus by that measure! And don't forget that the cello is itself technology.


    Remember, technology is not trying to play music. People are playing the music. This is not a reproducing technology. It's a creative technology that is taking as its point of departure the attempt to imitate orchestral instruments.


    This is a phase. It will be followed by a flowering of creativity producing music that could never be played by real orchestras. This is no different from, say, the electric guitar. Django Reinhardt, for all his amazing musicianship, played the electric guitar as an amplified acoustic guitar. He did not anticipate where Jimi Hendrix would take us.


    I believe this approach to the expansion of the musical palette of expression (the approach starting with mimesis) is going to be successful because it starts with what we already know to work -- as a result of over 400 years of instrument development, composition and performance practice. It doesn't ignore that and try to be "new" like so many experimental musical instruments. Because of this, musicians and composers who happen to accidentally live in this moment of history can partake in the next evolutionary step. In the probably not so distant future composers and performers will have gotten beyond this point (and it will probably be forgotten in the dust), as they make music we probably can't even imagine now.


    It's very exciting to be a part of the centuries-old, grand tradition of the expansion of musical expression. Thanks, again, to the genius of the folks at VSL (and their ilk around the world).
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    @Hannes_F said:

    I think that philosophically you are putting together virtual instruments with the question of artificial intelligence and emotional robots. These are different questions.
     

    My question  has only philosophical background,sure.

    Maybe one day the technical development will be advanced enough to simulate the real thing.

    But I think people want to see and hear living people on stage, just imagine a soccer game with 22 robots playing a match...boring, even if they would play better than humans.

    I totally understand what you and Paul mean, but if he conducts a Beethoven symphony played by a virtual orchestra I can't take it serious, it may be very interesting and spectacular, but there will allways be the lack of human spirit.

    But my respect anyway!

    christof 
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    The irony of all this, is that if and when is possible to replace a real violin with a sampled version, for example, there would still need to be detailed knowledge of the intricacies for that particular instrument, which in a way would defeat the object of using a sample. I certainly don't have this sort of knowledge about every instrument in the orchestra....!

    However, with any sort of rendering of music, the performer or programmer has to have a high degree of knowledge and musicality, so the best programmers for strings are likely as not to be string players.

    Regarding the conducting of a sampled orchestra there may be a way in the future to allow the individual instruments to read a few parameters, but as far as I can see, it will always require detailed, advance programming, so the best that is happening is that the "conductor" is acting as a glorified metronome and swell pedal for the whole ensemble.

    DG
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    @Christof Unterberger said:

    I totally understand what you and Paul mean, but if he conducts a Beethoven symphony played by a virtual orchestra I can't take it serious, it may be very interesting and spectacular, but there will allways be the lack of human spirit.

    Human spirit.  I think you can express yourself using virtual/digital instruments and you can express yourself using analogue/"real" instruments.  It is not fair to say one is better than the other at expressing music and therefore our spirit within.  For example I play keyboard and guitar - the fact that my piano only responds to a key press and yet with my guitar strings can be bent, plucked, (bowed if you really want) with vibrato, without vibrato etc doesn't mean I can't express myself equally well with either instrument.  So why can't I express myself using a virtual orchestra I can - maybe I can't have the exact level of control over it as I could with a real cello,horn or sax but I am still expressing myself and the music, virtual as it maybe is still real and can convey mood, sentiment and spirit.

    Best

    Tim
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    @DG said:

    I think that the advantages or disadvantages of using the Wii to control tempo is dependant on what sequencer you use. With Logic it is probably very useful. With Cubase, not really.

     

    DG

    DG, Could you please explain? I'm currently using DP4.6. Do DP is well adapted to use Wii? Thanks