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  4. VSL-Player waits a long time before it starts (some timeout in the program??)
  • PaulP
    VSL Team
    PaulP

    Hi Tobias, 

    we will need a little bit of information about your system. Which OS exactly, which VI version exactly, which Syncrosoft version?

    How much is "long", how big is a "small project"?

    In general: All licenses are being scanned with the initial startup, which may take between 1 and 2 minutes, depending on the combination of different software versions you are using. The latest versions are always the best. 

    After that first initial startup (you have started your computer, and you´re opening the VIs for the first time), each startup is fast. 

    Thanks for more details in advance!

    BTW: DId you check out the Vienna Ensemble software already?

    Best,

    Paul 

    Paul Kopf Product Manager VSL
  • T
    T
    Hi Paul, I'll try to provide everything... BTW, I could offer you to enable debug-traces (if possible) and send you a log file... OS: MacOS X 10.5 with all patches Syncrosoft: 5.5.24.0 A small project has 12 player instances. The VSL-Server-Process normally needs 1GB RAM if everything is loaded. When "double-click" on the Logic-Project which uses the VSL, the following happens: - Logic initializes. - VSL-Server is started and some time goes by checking the licenses I think. - VSL-Server starts to load data (can be seen in the "task-manager"). - VSL-Server stops to load data, both Logic and VSL "are not responding" for 30-60s. This repeats some times. - After 5-10 Minutes the Logic Project windows opens. I did not check the Ensemble - I thought this program was made If using second machine for Orchestra playback? But there is an additional information. I am loading the samples for Vienna from a firewire-harddrive. And I am using a RME-Fireface 800. This whole "sleeping-and-not-responding-bullshit" does *not* happen in two cases: First case is, I I load samples via USB and not per FireWire, then everything is OK, second case is if I turn off the Fireface... Is there a possibility to find out, what happens? Best Regards, Tobias
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC

    now thats a really good observation ... so far i've been under the impression the collision between harddisk and audio device on firewire does not happen with RME hardware - some other FW audio devices do not work usefully at all if samples are also streamed via firewire (this seems to be a mac-specific issue).

    what you are basically confirming is that there is a collision between FW audio connection and file access via firewire, in your case in a certain situation, in other cases continuously.

     

    also regarding the increased CPU load during file access via firewire my recommendation is to have the samples preferrably on disks connected via sATA.

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • T
    T
    That sounds a useful information. Is there a chance that RME might help? This did not happen on on "old" iMac with only Firewire 400 and Mac OS X 10.4. Best Regards, Tobias
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC

    PPC or intel iMac? curious abot details, because this issue is in principle touching nerves (FW audio devices are not so uncommon).

     

    for me there is generally some mystical behaviour on firewire which is probably related to the fact, that asynchronous and isochronous transfer is both possible (and might collide in a driver?)

     

    in case you ask RME and receive some answer shedding more light on the issue please let me know ...

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • M
    M
    (I'd might be a bit out of topic here) Same thing for me, but with an inside serial ATA hard drive for the VSL database (not my OS one of course): the plugin first takes a very long time to check its licenses (between 10 and 20 seconds, when other usb key protected softwares achieve it in a heart beat) then the loading takes a very long time (compare to ESX24 for instance... is the VSL compression involve ? If it's the case, I believe most people don't care about space anymore), but the very disturbing thing is that during the process the cheap VSL loading alert window try to keep the focus ... very very boring and bizarre under OSX : thus you can't even surf the web or type a mail during the long process.

    From a general point of view, and apart from the fact that VSL is a very good product, the OSX/Logic implémentation is very very, very, poor (the fact that you have 2 steps, from your channel strip to that one-button window up to the VSL plugin UI inside Logic, is a good example of what I mean. There's a lot of plugin using their own UI toolkit too, and doing a good job). So I'm sorry to tell that VSL offers by far the worst plugin experience I ever had. Very bizarre knowing that CoreAudio/Au make things so easy to plug into OSX.

    Maybe it could be time for VSL to hire people, or time, from Apple/Logic (just send me a mail if you want me to put you through).

    My music workstation is (still) a PPC 2x2; 4.5GB RAM; VSL Special Edition; OSX Tiger (10.4.11); Logic Pro 7.x and 8.x.
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC

    please do not compare apples with pears (pun intended!) - i don't know any exs instrument loading almost closely a similar amount of data ...

     

    as posted earlier: in my opinion a professional audio machine should not be used for office tasks like emailing or browsing (or whatever else). this might be only me, but then it doesn't take me wonder why several setups are in the bad shape they obviously are ... now and then or more often ...

     

    also posted earlier: the (vsl-)server solution had to be introduced to overcome (GUI-)performance issues when ViennaInstruments have been released and makes sure you can access a seperate memory space (from the hosting application)

     

    i personally also don't like the design of the loading message (i.e. it opens always on the main monitor even if the VI is on the other one) and would prefer a kind of progress bar, but i'm sure there are reasons for it beeing as is ...

     

    so we are very sorry to hear VSL developers are doing such a poor job with the dead easy CoreAudio/AU architecture and are looking forward you will put us through to more competent people ...

    maybe you can convince them in advance to install even more than the solo strings from their NFRs for some more extensive tests with an application that _really_ needs memory

     

    thx, christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • M
    M
    last edited
    last edited

    @Another User said:

    maybe you can convince them in advance to install even more than the solo strings from their NFRs for some more extensive tests with an application that _really_ needs memory

    I have no memory issues in my non-professional use of VSL. But loading/license-checking/focus behavior while loading (bug) issues and some desiderata about general UI. (Topic of this thread)

    Thank you to admit you've got some improvement to do here and there (so easily).

    Manuel

  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC

    you're welcome, 

    so i take it you are considering accessing a seperate memory space as no good design ... nevermind.

    please note that video streaming (continuous read) is different from sample streaming (random read) so clearly you will notice a difference in data throughput.

    unfortunately i neither understand the term *real* (vs. unreal) mailbox nor to what you are referring by *fairplay* ...

    IIRC the topic was about vslserver possibly pausing during loading data into different instances if audio and disk is both connected via firewire and not about UI, but feel free to hitchhike the thread ... resp. add your design and programming ideas.

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • M
    M
    By Real I mean out_of_the_forum (I will not post personal information on a forum and I have to get an email address of somebody you might not want to put here either). And by fairplay I mean a serious contact, rather an _open_minded_ R&D_manager_ than the hotline guy (with no offense to him, and great respect to hotline people).

    Manuel
  • T
    T
    Hi Christian, its an Intel-Mac. And I also got an answer from RME: First http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475 Whereby I yet don't really know, what the current state of the problem is, but there is a workaround-description (which I can't evaluate because of missing second FW port at the external Harddrive). Best Regards, Tobias
  • Beat KaufmannB
    Beat KaufmannB
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    @topse said:

    ....  Tobias
     

    Hi Tobias

    I'm a bit in a hurry and had not the time to read all other answers.

    Just another point to check out:

    Did you tried to start your system without any Antivirus Program?

    I've G-Data (a German Product)

    I use 5 minutes for starting 1 VI instance (without any Sample) with "G-Data-Guard" 

    I use 40 seconds for starting a VI instance without "G-Data-Guard".

    Best - and good luck

    Beat

    - Tips & Tricks while using Samples of VSL.. see at: https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/vitutorials/ - Tutorial "Mixing an Orchestra": https://www.beat-kaufmann.com/mixing-an-orchestra/
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    last edited
    last edited

    topse, now this is a real bummer ...

    @Another User said:

    there is a new FW 800 chip on the market from Agere, which seems to be incompatible (not only) to RMEs FireWire audio, and requires workarounds for successful operation.

    The reason Apple used this chip instead of the former TI solution is easy to find: half the price and a lot smaller. So it is not astonishing that this chip now also begins to show up on Windows computers. We got our hands on a PCIe FireWire 800 card from Unibrain using this chip, and found the exact (!) same problems under Windows as under Mac OS X using this card.

     

    i know (and have posted this already) that there is really much crap on the market for FW expansion cards, but again it seems apple has given up its credo to use only first class components for their hardware ... now i'm starting to understand why the maxtor oneTouch II works so unreliable on newer macs....

    eg. the (also mentioned) unibrain products are totally useless from my experience and i regulary notice performance issues with VIA chips.

    i've also posted earlier a link to an informative articel about FW incompatibilities http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/fw800alert.htm

     

    have you checked your iMac is using this chip and i don't understand the *no second firewire port on the harddisk* ... as i've read it they suggest to add an additional FW-controller to the computer (a PCIe34 expansion in the given example, mainly intended for proBooks obviously)

     

    the thread you linked to is also a goldmine for windows (the theysicon links there, a company which really knows what they are doing) although it also states that OS X system information does not provide the correct information about the used chips (if this is true, again a bummer)

     

    some option maybe worth to try comes into my mind (since everything reads like a collison between asynchronous and isichronous mode might be involved) ... try to daisychain your devices the other way around (computer - harddisk - audio vs. computer - audio - harddisk) or given you have a FW controller on the computer with 2 ports connect them both directly (firewire devices work by design like hubs - 1 in, 2 out, 1 for the device), possibly protocol issues can be avoided in one configuration.

     

    heading the NAMM we are a little bit short in time currently but i'll try to organize a double check on our intel Imac (please provide harddisk model to allow a very similar setup)

     

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
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    @manu_28410 said:

    And by fairplay I mean a serious contact, rather an _open_minded_ R&D_manager_ than the hotline guy

    well, you are pretty new to VSL, so here are some news: there is no hotline and therefore also no hotline guy who could feel offended or disrespected now ... 😛

    i dare to insist the VSL support team is the most dedicated you might find and closely in contact with the developers and the developers theirselves are true wizards beeing well in touch with almost everybody thinkable on this globe.

    though clearly in a little company like VSL there is always a lack of ressources and a too large wishlist - feel free to contact support@vsl.co.at anytime you think a real issue needs to be solved.

    christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • T
    T
    Hi beat, thanks for the advice. I yet don't use an Antivir - I hope no one reads this ;-) Best Regards, Tobias
  • T
    T
    Hi Christian, The Harddrive is placed in a Pleiades Firewire400 & USB2-Gehäuse. The Harddisk itself is 250GB SAMSUNG SP2514N. The HD is connected to the Firewire400-Port, the Fireface800 is using the Firewire800-Port. How exactly can I check which chip my Mac uses? I think, all the experiences are pointing to the bad one... Today I have contacted my hardware vendor. I asked him to solve the problem or take back the computer. I yet don't have an answer but I will keep you updated. Dependent on what he says I will try to buy a Firewire-Hub and test this. Yesterday I tried to use the Pleiades as a hub - but that gave me a kernel-panic (with data-loss ;-( ). Best Regards, Tobias
  • cmC
    VSL Team
    cmC
    last edited
    last edited

    doesn't the system info tell us something about FW?

    adding a device as FW-hub would assumably worsen the situation - but using the pleiades as hub receiving a kernel panic is scary ...

    pleiades is using assumably oxford chips ... very common and usually reliable, probably an OXUF934DSa

    thx for the details, christian

    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • T
    T
    The System-Profiler only tells that there *is* Firewire 800 available... but nothing more. Best Regards, Tobias
  • D
    D
    manu,

    The tone of your post comes across to me as very arrogant, ignorant, and ungrateful.

    I believe VSL is breaking new ground, and has produced a product that not only has no competition
    but also has the unfortunate position of not being able to reference any product hereto released
    by any manufacture in our field to use as a root or ground floor to build from.

    Its all new territory.

    Yes, there are some common features like that fact that it is an audio/midi program, and a VI plugin...
    But thats where it ends.

    We are seeing them build the road and at the sametime drive on it.

    Naturally there will be areas that need attention, fixes, updates and so on.

    Don't forget that this is a company of musicians and composers like you and me and they also
    use their own products and what bothers you/me also bothers them and they are trying to find
    the best way to resolve issues.

    It is obvious to me that they have very talented developers working for them and I find VE/VI
    extremely elegant and streamlined and quiver at the thought of having to launch other VI's.

    I feel you should find better ways to express your frustration at such a revolutionary
    product and company and I hope you appreciate what they have accomplished and allowed us
    composers to accomplish on our computers with our music. Its absolutely incredible how amazing
    this product is.

    I look toward to the future and can only imagine what VSL is capable of and eagerly await new releases.

    If I have a suggestion I state it but I would never put down or insult this company or its employees
    because of the issues I have with their product. I look at what I it has allowed me to do and it puts
    a smile on my face.

    We chose to use this product, no one forced us.
    Good luck,
    David
  • M
    M
    Hi DM33,

    I totally agree with your statements, except, of course, for your "arrogant, ignorant, and ungrateful" ... and I don't understand why you're talking about "Insult" here.

    For the arrogant part I'm sorry not to be always "politically correct" but, beside the fact that my english vocabulary is poor (which can explain a part of it) when I state that VSL is the worth _PLUGIN_ experience (not product) I never have, I'm sorry but that's unfortunately true, I mean it, and I appreciate that VSL people are not considering arrogant the fact that I give us my time and feedback.

    But maybe I have to explain this a bit more - as the topic of this thread is not clear:

    - First I'm talking about the "loading" experience of VSL plugin at the launch of a logic audio pro and or the loading of logic audio pro project.
    - Then just Let's compare with a plugin like Toontrack DFH superior (quite a similar product, I mean I use it to load the same amount of sample data as VSL, around 1GB inside a track) : when it loads the samples the plugin doesn't override all OS windows focus (one thing I've never seen among OSX applications, it looks like a very dirty hack in my eyes). I don't need to open one window first to go to the main plugin window... it seems - quote from the vsl online video - that this is just mac specific ... what does it mean ?
    - Now let's compare to logic 7.x or Maya (usb key protected software) : they don't take between 10 and 20 seconds to check their licenses.
    And I'm pretty unhappy with all that. Because I'm sure this can be avoided ...

    DFH, or Maya has other kind of issues, my Line6 Gearbox plugin too, and because I love those products... I've told them.

    For the Ignorant part : I'm actually ignorant, but aren't we all... in a way ? In the other hand I'm a very pragmatic user and have a pretty serious experience of all kind of media production software. And, another thing, concerning user experience and its design, my experience is that ignorance is bless on that very specific matter.
    One other thing, I know for sure, is that most developers have that inclination that consist to hide some kind of laziness behind statements like "Behave correctly, as expected" or "That's the kind of thing user should not do" (i.e: write a mail while a software is loading... ) where everybody else on earth will see a bug. Why not just say ..."yeah I know that, it's not easy ...etc" instead ?

    ... as for the Ungrateful, you're totally wrong. I'm amazed by VSL work (quality and amount of samples, player performances, the usability, versatility and beauty of the vienna instrument software is really stunning). But, don't you think that "tickling somebody where it hurts" (french expression) is not always for doing harm ? (There's a beautiful "little bird" metaphor about it in "My name is nobody" movie, for the connoisseur. This metaphor is my credo).

    So I've been a bit harsh, have I ?
    Maybe, maybe not...

    (by the way : I'm happy to learn that we're talking of a small developer team here, as I know for sure that small teams do the best products on earth. Give me some times, and, as I promise I will contact people here and there and try to convince them to be more understanding).