(I'd might be a bit out of topic here) Same thing for me, but with an inside serial ATA hard drive for the VSL database (not my OS one of course): the plugin first takes a very long time to check its licenses (between 10 and 20 seconds, when other usb key protected softwares achieve it in a heart beat) then the loading takes a very long time (compare to ESX24 for instance... is the VSL compression involve ? If it's the case, I believe most people don't care about space anymore), but the very disturbing thing is that during the process the cheap VSL loading alert window try to keep the focus ... very very boring and bizarre under OSX : thus you can't even surf the web or type a mail during the long process.

From a general point of view, and apart from the fact that VSL is a very good product, the OSX/Logic implémentation is very very, very, poor (the fact that you have 2 steps, from your channel strip to that one-button window up to the VSL plugin UI inside Logic, is a good example of what I mean. There's a lot of plugin using their own UI toolkit too, and doing a good job). So I'm sorry to tell that VSL offers by far the worst plugin experience I ever had. Very bizarre knowing that CoreAudio/Au make things so easy to plug into OSX.

Maybe it could be time for VSL to hire people, or time, from Apple/Logic (just send me a mail if you want me to put you through).

My music workstation is (still) a PPC 2x2; 4.5GB RAM; VSL Special Edition; OSX Tiger (10.4.11); Logic Pro 7.x and 8.x.

please do not compare apples with pears (pun intended!) - i don't know any exs instrument loading almost closely a similar amount of data ...

 

as posted earlier: in my opinion a professional audio machine should not be used for office tasks like emailing or browsing (or whatever else). this might be only me, but then it doesn't take me wonder why several setups are in the bad shape they obviously are ... now and then or more often ...

 

also posted earlier: the (vsl-)server solution had to be introduced to overcome (GUI-)performance issues when ViennaInstruments have been released and makes sure you can access a seperate memory space (from the hosting application)

 

i personally also don't like the design of the loading message (i.e. it opens always on the main monitor even if the VI is on the other one) and would prefer a kind of progress bar, but i'm sure there are reasons for it beeing as is ...

 

so we are very sorry to hear VSL developers are doing such a poor job with the dead easy CoreAudio/AU architecture and are looking forward you will put us through to more competent people ...

maybe you can convince them in advance to install even more than the solo strings from their NFRs for some more extensive tests with an application that _really_ needs memory

 

thx, christian

@Another User said:

maybe you can convince them in advance to install even more than the solo strings from their NFRs for some more extensive tests with an application that _really_ needs memory

I have no memory issues in my non-professional use of VSL. But loading/license-checking/focus behavior while loading (bug) issues and some desiderata about general UI. (Topic of this thread)

Thank you to admit you've got some improvement to do here and there (so easily).

Manuel

you're welcome, 

so i take it you are considering accessing a seperate memory space as no good design ... nevermind.

please note that video streaming (continuous read) is different from sample streaming (random read) so clearly you will notice a difference in data throughput.

unfortunately i neither understand the term *real* (vs. unreal) mailbox nor to what you are referring by *fairplay* ...

IIRC the topic was about vslserver possibly pausing during loading data into different instances if audio and disk is both connected via firewire and not about UI, but feel free to hitchhike the thread ... resp. add your design and programming ideas.

christian

By Real I mean out_of_the_forum (I will not post personal information on a forum and I have to get an email address of somebody you might not want to put here either). And by fairplay I mean a serious contact, rather an _open_minded_ R&D_manager_ than the hotline guy (with no offense to him, and great respect to hotline people).

Manuel

Hi Christian, its an Intel-Mac. And I also got an answer from RME: First http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1475 Whereby I yet don't really know, what the current state of the problem is, but there is a workaround-description (which I can't evaluate because of missing second FW port at the external Harddrive). Best Regards, Tobias

@topse said:

....  Tobias

 

Hi Tobias

I'm a bit in a hurry and had not the time to read all other answers.

Just another point to check out:

Did you tried to start your system without any Antivirus Program?

I've G-Data (a German Product)

I use 5 minutes for starting 1 VI instance (without any Sample) with "G-Data-Guard" 

I use 40 seconds for starting a VI instance without "G-Data-Guard".

Best - and good luck

Beat

topse, now this is a real bummer ...

@Another User said:

there is a new FW 800 chip on the market from Agere, which seems to be incompatible (not only) to RMEs FireWire audio, and requires workarounds for successful operation.

The reason Apple used this chip instead of the former TI solution is easy to find: half the price and a lot smaller. So it is not astonishing that this chip now also begins to show up on Windows computers. We got our hands on a PCIe FireWire 800 card from Unibrain using this chip, and found the exact (!) same problems under Windows as under Mac OS X using this card.

 

i know (and have posted this already) that there is really much crap on the market for FW expansion cards, but again it seems apple has given up its credo to use only first class components for their hardware ... now i'm starting to understand why the maxtor oneTouch II works so unreliable on newer macs....

eg. the (also mentioned) unibrain products are totally useless from my experience and i regulary notice performance issues with VIA chips.

i've also posted earlier a link to an informative articel about FW incompatibilities http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/fw800alert.htm

 

have you checked your iMac is using this chip and i don't understand the *no second firewire port on the harddisk* ... as i've read it they suggest to add an additional FW-controller to the computer (a PCIe34 expansion in the given example, mainly intended for proBooks obviously)

 

the thread you linked to is also a goldmine for windows (the theysicon links there, a company which really knows what they are doing) although it also states that OS X system information does not provide the correct information about the used chips (if this is true, again a bummer)

 

some option maybe worth to try comes into my mind (since everything reads like a collison between asynchronous and isichronous mode might be involved) ... try to daisychain your devices the other way around (computer - harddisk - audio vs. computer - audio - harddisk) or given you have a FW controller on the computer with 2 ports connect them both directly (firewire devices work by design like hubs - 1 in, 2 out, 1 for the device), possibly protocol issues can be avoided in one configuration.

 

heading the NAMM we are a little bit short in time currently but i'll try to organize a double check on our intel Imac (please provide harddisk model to allow a very similar setup)

 

christian

@manu_28410 said:

And by fairplay I mean a serious contact, rather an _open_minded_ R&D_manager_ than the hotline guy

well, you are pretty new to VSL, so here are some news: there is no hotline and therefore also no hotline guy who could feel offended or disrespected now ... 😛

i dare to insist the VSL support team is the most dedicated you might find and closely in contact with the developers and the developers theirselves are true wizards beeing well in touch with almost everybody thinkable on this globe.

though clearly in a little company like VSL there is always a lack of ressources and a too large wishlist - feel free to contact support@vsl.co.at anytime you think a real issue needs to be solved.

christian

Hi beat, thanks for the advice. I yet don't use an Antivir - I hope no one reads this ;-) Best Regards, Tobias

Hi Christian, The Harddrive is placed in a Pleiades Firewire400 & USB2-Gehäuse. The Harddisk itself is 250GB SAMSUNG SP2514N. The HD is connected to the Firewire400-Port, the Fireface800 is using the Firewire800-Port. How exactly can I check which chip my Mac uses? I think, all the experiences are pointing to the bad one... Today I have contacted my hardware vendor. I asked him to solve the problem or take back the computer. I yet don't have an answer but I will keep you updated. Dependent on what he says I will try to buy a Firewire-Hub and test this. Yesterday I tried to use the Pleiades as a hub - but that gave me a kernel-panic (with data-loss ;-( ). Best Regards, Tobias

doesn't the system info tell us something about FW?

adding a device as FW-hub would assumably worsen the situation - but using the pleiades as hub receiving a kernel panic is scary ...

pleiades is using assumably oxford chips ... very common and usually reliable, probably an OXUF934DSa

thx for the details, christian

The System-Profiler only tells that there *is* Firewire 800 available... but nothing more. Best Regards, Tobias

manu,

The tone of your post comes across to me as very arrogant, ignorant, and ungrateful.

I believe VSL is breaking new ground, and has produced a product that not only has no competition
but also has the unfortunate position of not being able to reference any product hereto released
by any manufacture in our field to use as a root or ground floor to build from.

Its all new territory.

Yes, there are some common features like that fact that it is an audio/midi program, and a VI plugin...
But thats where it ends.

We are seeing them build the road and at the sametime drive on it.

Naturally there will be areas that need attention, fixes, updates and so on.

Don't forget that this is a company of musicians and composers like you and me and they also
use their own products and what bothers you/me also bothers them and they are trying to find
the best way to resolve issues.

It is obvious to me that they have very talented developers working for them and I find VE/VI
extremely elegant and streamlined and quiver at the thought of having to launch other VI's.

I feel you should find better ways to express your frustration at such a revolutionary
product and company and I hope you appreciate what they have accomplished and allowed us
composers to accomplish on our computers with our music. Its absolutely incredible how amazing
this product is.

I look toward to the future and can only imagine what VSL is capable of and eagerly await new releases.

If I have a suggestion I state it but I would never put down or insult this company or its employees
because of the issues I have with their product. I look at what I it has allowed me to do and it puts
a smile on my face.

We chose to use this product, no one forced us.
Good luck,
David

Hi DM33,

I totally agree with your statements, except, of course, for your "arrogant, ignorant, and ungrateful" ... and I don't understand why you're talking about "Insult" here.

For the arrogant part I'm sorry not to be always "politically correct" but, beside the fact that my english vocabulary is poor (which can explain a part of it) when I state that VSL is the worth _PLUGIN_ experience (not product) I never have, I'm sorry but that's unfortunately true, I mean it, and I appreciate that VSL people are not considering arrogant the fact that I give us my time and feedback.

But maybe I have to explain this a bit more - as the topic of this thread is not clear:

- First I'm talking about the "loading" experience of VSL plugin at the launch of a logic audio pro and or the loading of logic audio pro project.
- Then just Let's compare with a plugin like Toontrack DFH superior (quite a similar product, I mean I use it to load the same amount of sample data as VSL, around 1GB inside a track) : when it loads the samples the plugin doesn't override all OS windows focus (one thing I've never seen among OSX applications, it looks like a very dirty hack in my eyes). I don't need to open one window first to go to the main plugin window... it seems - quote from the vsl online video - that this is just mac specific ... what does it mean ?
- Now let's compare to logic 7.x or Maya (usb key protected software) : they don't take between 10 and 20 seconds to check their licenses.
And I'm pretty unhappy with all that. Because I'm sure this can be avoided ...

DFH, or Maya has other kind of issues, my Line6 Gearbox plugin too, and because I love those products... I've told them.

For the Ignorant part : I'm actually ignorant, but aren't we all... in a way ? In the other hand I'm a very pragmatic user and have a pretty serious experience of all kind of media production software. And, another thing, concerning user experience and its design, my experience is that ignorance is bless on that very specific matter.
One other thing, I know for sure, is that most developers have that inclination that consist to hide some kind of laziness behind statements like "Behave correctly, as expected" or "That's the kind of thing user should not do" (i.e: write a mail while a software is loading... ) where everybody else on earth will see a bug. Why not just say ..."yeah I know that, it's not easy ...etc" instead ?

... as for the Ungrateful, you're totally wrong. I'm amazed by VSL work (quality and amount of samples, player performances, the usability, versatility and beauty of the vienna instrument software is really stunning). But, don't you think that "tickling somebody where it hurts" (french expression) is not always for doing harm ? (There's a beautiful "little bird" metaphor about it in "My name is nobody" movie, for the connoisseur. This metaphor is my credo).

So I've been a bit harsh, have I ?
Maybe, maybe not...

(by the way : I'm happy to learn that we're talking of a small developer team here, as I know for sure that small teams do the best products on earth. Give me some times, and, as I promise I will contact people here and there and try to convince them to be more understanding).

@cm said:

feel free to contact support@vsl.co.at anytime you think a real issue needs to be solved.

Well, that's exactly what I don't need.
How could I seriously ask someone to do something for you if I don't even have a name to provide ?
Imagine my mail:

"Hi, X
Excuse me to disturb you but I have a specific request for you :
I know a fabulous product that seems to get issues to plug with Logic... blahblah ...
do your possible by contacting : support@vsl.co.at."

I think we don't understand each other, at all, Christian.

Com'on don't be shy, get my email address out of that forum database and give it a try ... who knows you could be surprised.
I promise I will use this contact and mailbox just once.

[quote=manu_28410][quote=cm] feel free to contact

Loading times of matrices and patches have been significantly accelerated compared to former sampler platforms (like for e.g. in EXS 24 MKII loading a _perf-leg_p+f patch was about 18 sec, in the Vienna Instrument this takes about 4-8 sec for the first time it gets loaded and 1,5 sec for yet another). Besides it doesn´t make sense to compare EXS and Vienna Instruments player because their architecture is completely different (just one big difference: Vi appears to be a "plug-in" BUT in fact it is an application of its own and has its own audio engine integrated and EXS uses Logic´s audio engine/license/RAM etc.)

The time, which is needed to open a Vienna Instrument in Logic is something different. The license scan depends mainly on how much content/licenses you have installed. The licenses for each instrument and for the two levels (standard and extended level) need to be checked on your Vienna Key. For the 1st Vienna Instrument to be opened this will take up to a minute (or more depending on how much content is installed). The following instruments will show up much faster, because all licenses are already scanned.

There are 2 applications involved in the license scan - LCC and Vi Software. Scanning has been already optimized in both applications and our developers are working on further possibilities to optimize it, together with Syncrosoft. As mentioned before - all of us work with our Software too and we´re keen to improve it.

1) I´d recommend to add only the content you need to your Directory Manager. 

2) You can also add VI Standalone to your "login Items". It will then start up automatically when you log in - and it will start the license scan too. Close Standalone then and start to work with VI´s in your sequencer.

Maya

___________________________

VIENNA SYMPHONIC LIBRARY 

In your original post you wrote these statements which are all arrogant, ignorant, and ungrateful:

"cheap VSL loading alert window"
"very very boring"
"very very, very, poor"
"worst plugin experience I ever had"
"could be time for VSL to hire people"
"just send me a mail if you want me to put you through"

All very arrogant statements.

It is obvious from further posts that you do not understand the product's unique architecture and what is involved
in its launching and license checking.

When you compare the VI to products that don't even come close to resembling what VSL VI is accomplishing
it shows your ignorance.

Most vi's don't check content, they are only checking the vi player. If you have the license it works.

Also, and this is a big one, most vi's don't see all your RAM or allow you to access more RAM.
VSL have found an ingenious way to allow us to load more samples. On the PC its 64-bit
but on the Mac the currents limits of the OS forced them to redesign the product so Mac users
can load multiple instances inside and outside their sequncer and load 3gb of samples in each
instance.

So there is your ungratefulness.

Instead of just using the product and enjoying its features you want to write posts that nit-pick
details of how it loads.

I think you have better things to do, and so do they, then waste their time about these things.

If you have some constructive critisicm I'm sure they are all ears to hear it but there is nothing constructive
in your posts.

I'm done with this thread, no need to respond.

I wish you all the best!
DM

Thank you Maya.
I appreciate your answers a lot and I can easily understand that, for some reasons, you've chosen to use your own engine.

here's 3 comments, and I'm done:

- during the loading (of the project, not inside the pseudo AU, under Tiger at least I've not tested under Leopard yet) ) you still have a problem of your alert window keeping the focus from the user, wich is a real pain. Please try to find a way to avoid that.

- Like most people, I really like to get an idea of where I am when loading my RAM with large amount of material. so I think a progress bar/feedback, even instrument by instrument, like EXS do, would be a good improvement during that phase (feedback is important and I guess that this, combine with the focus bug, explains why I find that the loading is so long...).

- this (app vs plugin) explains another issue, from what I remember : you can't switch from Logic window to VSL interface using usual shortcuts (command `). When you use a lot of plugins and instrument and let their window opened to play with it, like I do, this is boring. But knowing why now, I think there's nothings you could do, except maybe provide somewhere a preference to allow VSL instances to show up as real applications (and can be reached using command+tab).

Now, for sure, my needs are not those of a guy writing a movie score.

Thanks again.
Manuel

(As for DM33, as I don't know what to say ... I will not answer as asked...)