PaulR,
In the winter I practice golf indoors against a wall, with a picture of Ben Hogan's backswing to look at constantly. :)
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Good post, Tanui. If we see both live performance and digital production as valid art mediums, they are more likely to learn from one another and both will benefit. If we pit one against the other we'll miss great opportunities to move both of them forward. They both have very different purposes and very different benefits (economics being one of those for digital music). Both are clearly better at some things and limited in ways that the other isn't. We should learn from both, not build walls between them.
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This a really interesting thread, as usual, Bill. So congrats on that!
I have to say, that while I find William's outburst about how horrible and useless contemporary concert music is pretty offensive, and largely without merit, I think I do understand what he's getting at, with regard to digital music... at least independently of his personal feelings about the whole state of affairs in concert music. What I think William is suggesting is that there is no actual, direct relationship between live music and digital music. Or at least, there doesn't need to be. And that, perhaps, once we really grasp this, and take it to heart, we will be able to truly exploit the digital medium to its full potential. It is our continued reluctance, or incapacity, to see sampled instruments as totally unconnected to live performance that prevents us from moving forward... Mind you, I'm not sure how this situation can be remedied. Particularly since the sampled instruments are so closely modelled after their live counterparts, with regard to range, playing techniques, and so on. In this sense I can't help but agree with cfblakeman. After all, pretty much every sample-based recording of an original work I've heard sounds much better when the composer really knows how to write idiomatically for the actual (i.e., "live" ) instruments. Naive orchestration, or instrumental writing, played by samples still sounds like naive orchestration/instrumental writing. So, we have a situation where we're cultured by live playing, to the extent that even a single note of a sound of orchestral origin immediately sets off a logical chain of associations, leading us right on to the orchestral stage, yet we're trying to learn how to use these virtual instruments in a totally new way. But, as composers, "using" these sounds in a new way presupposes *hearing* these sounds in a new way. Or, at least, that's how I've always felt about it. Whenever my musical language seems, to me, to inch forward, I always understand it to be an extension in my ability to *hear* something I didn't hear before... composing is kind of chronologically secondary, to me...
So, I guess I'm asking: is it possible for digital music (I'm thinking particularly of VSL samples - there's no question that digital music has changed our hearing, on the whole) to help us *hear* these sounds differently? (Maybe this is kind of what William is asking too... not sure)
Anyway, I'm enjoying the general flow of this conversation. Let's see if we can keep it going, without it degenerating into a mud-slinging battle! ;-)
J.
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I tried not to involve anyone's music in the discussion, but I think it's not avoidable to make the point - Tanuj, as I read it from William's initial post, he meant that we would be there already with samples and perfection, well ok, later on he said almost and in some cases. So the artistry would really come availible for anyone at high quality, and as you say (which I also already mentioned in an earlier post btw.) at affordable prices. And also being affordable for artistry because a single artist can pull of a 80-piece-orchestra and doesn't need 80 or more people and doesn't need 80 times the time needed for just composing and recording the thing.
Yet some of you might have heard of the Lexus show, where 12 Lexus cars where "performing" an orchestral piece. Dunno if composer Chris Nicolaides or orchestrator Alistair King are member of this forum, but both have achievedwhat I regard as a quite well done mockup in advance to recording the LSO with the same piece. I'd recommend to have a listen to that thing, and in the order that you firstly listen to the samples version here: http://www.mailbigfile.com/a8b2d2ce7b835825aa7391866ce6efb9/listFiles.php Then go to the Lexus showcase site http://www.lexusorchestra.co.uk/ and download the recordings from the download section.
I'll not elaborate too much on this as I want you to get your own impression of it first. But too me these are two very different "performances" and I doubt I would call the mockup being perfect, yet there are only a few around with the quality it has. Surely some more tweaking would help it .If you want to follow the original discussion please visit the original VI-Control forums thread: http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7041
All the best,
PolarBear
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Actually the Lexus stuff I referred to was to show off the other way around, like William proposed it - having the samples in first place, nothing else would make it to the recording of a top world orchestra. While being great composers and orchestrators, still the artistry is limited to what was captured in samples, let aside the special things VSL offers us already. I didn't intent to pull off another dreaded live vs. samples discussion with this, where people do mockup a 24th variation of existing recordings. They may be an interesting approach to see what's possible, but you will agree that usually one wouldn't spend that much care for every little and smallest detail like if you were to imitate an Itzhak Perlman. And in my opinion that is showed off quite well be the Lexus stuff which was going the other way around - the expressiveness the mockups perhaps could have is almost easily outrun by the recording. A mockup of these recordings would definately soudn different than what was presented for demoing purposes. So for me it's still a no, we're not there with samples yet. We can show off ideas convincingly enough for a fraction of the price. But not the samples nor the artists can create an equally pleasing rendition with samples. And I'm not picking on anyone's abilities here, as I would do a by far inferior job at things like this.
PolarBear
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Here's another recap for you cfblakeman - that's bullshit.
I never said i was "more evolved" - where did I say that?
Answer a question straight. Even though that is hard for you since you are from the Classical Mind Control Establishment.
I am less evolved. By choice. I spit regularly on people who are evolved.
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P Paul moved this topic from Orchestration & Composition on