first note of a legato passage

[jaypackard_25214]

The first note of a legato passage especially in the strings takes too long to start. I set up a speed control with the intent of playing the sustain sample as the first note of a phrase and legato from then on, but this doesn't work unless there is a long enough break from the previous phrase (since it is speed controled). Being a programmer myself, it seems like the easiest solution would be to create a patch to Vienna Instruments that resets the speed to slow when there is a break. This way, after every break including short ones, the starting note would be a sustain. Is there another solution so I can just play the notes and not have the first note of a legato phrase take so long to start?  This is a very rudimentry request that I'm surprised wasn't included to begin with.

Jay

[DG]

Easiest thing to do is start with another patch and keyswitch to the legato after you play the fist note.

[jaypackard_25214]

I was hoping to avoid that.  I am interested in a real-time way of doing this.  If the first note is short, such as the beginning of a run, there's no way I can time it in real-time so that it only applies to the first note.

[DG]

If you are playing a run, then  the best thing to do is to keyswitch to the performance trill sample and use that instead. Then it will be real time; you just have to keyswitch to the articulation first.

The other thing that you can do is (if you're using velocity xFade) set up a matrix where you can change to a fast attack note or other with a higher velocity. Hit it a bit harder and you get a faster attack.

DG

[jaypackard_25214]

The xFade trick is a good solution, thanks, although I feel like I've paid too much for this software to have to do such tricks.  Something else I've discovered that works pretty well is to layer the sustain and legato together.

[DG]

I understand that you want the software to be as intuitive as possible, but it can't read your mind. The only way that I can see to make this possible is to set up a matrix for runs, or use the velocity trick.

DG

[Beat Kaufmann]

@jaypackard_25214 said:

... I feel like I've paid too much for this software to have to do such tricks...

 

This part of your answer forces me to jump in here.

I don't know whether you are working with samples for a long time or not. Even if I don't know that:

Using samples for making music means  "being ready to compromise" from every single tone to the next.

* So you will never have a warm legato, a sad legato or a joyful legato for example. You only have legato, fast legato trill-legato...

You will never have a diminuendo of 2.56s, of 3.478s 4.67s or of 1.2s. You only have 1.5s, 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s...

Libraries can only offer a small collection of articulations. Even if this is quit a lot it is almost nothing - But...

You can solve the problems of the "betweens" with tricks which DG has mentioned. Your too slow legato-start is quite OK in a Adagio or Andante (...try the Legat fast for a better result). If you are not ready to use such tricks you will never be happy. Or in other words: Making music with samples is not that easy how it seems to be at a first glance. 1minute music = 1 day of working hard (small group of musicians) is not a bad avarrage.

But if could accept using tricks you have the chance to come very close to the reality. Have a look at demos from Jay Bacal. He is the master (in using tricks) here at VSL in my eyes. The price he always has to pay for such a perfectionism is probably a lot of working hours - and the same again[:)]. 

* The future could bring some more humanizing effects into the fixed sample world. Algorithms could vary the samples, could calculate faster attack times at the beginning of runs 😉 and so on...

humanized piece with cough (at 1:20) 

(DeFesch, arranged by Kaufmann) 

Why this piece? Another thing is: I maintain, that such a performance isn't possible while playing the VI "live". So don't be disappointed if you have smaller possibilities while playing the VI in the direct way. 

All the best

Beat Kaufmann 

_______________________________________________________

www.beat-kaufmann.com

[JBacal]

Beat-- Your Defesch performance is great!!  I honestly can't tell if everything is samples or not-- I just hear the delightful music making.   The continuo is particularly impressive.

Best,

Jay

[jaypackard_25214]

I realize for the most realistic sound, it requires hard work and some "tricks".  But I suggest the software be improved to provide a decent and easy to use default.  It is not a good default that the first note note in the strings in the legato sample starts so late and is never even heard if it is a short note.  There are many composers like myself who will use a real instrument for the final performance, but they want an easy to use decent sounding midi mockup, which the legato samples provide after the first note. Even for composers who will use samples for the final version, the software should help remove the repititious actions, such as having to trigger something before each phrase.  Decreasing repetition, or in other words, automation, is at the heart of technology.  I suggested a fix, which is to have the speed reset to the slowest after a break such that I can have a speed controller use the sustain patch (which has a quicker attack) for the very slowest notes and legato thereafter.  Or perhaps there's another solution.  I think the software SHOULD "read our minds", not by some cable hooked into my brain, but by implementing what most composers want.

[DG]

OK, well another suggestion. Why not create a matrix that has sustain as the first cell, then legato then fast legato etc. and just set the first % in the speed control to a very low value. Then after a long gap it will automatically default to sustain.

DG

[jaypackard_25214]

This is what I I did (though I probably didn't explain it clearly).  The problem with this is the gap has to be long.  I would like it so that even after a small gap, it resets to the sustain patch.  Bach's joy motive, for example, has rythmn xxx-xxx-xxx where x stands for an eigth note and - stands for a eighth rest, which would NOT trigger the sustain at the beginning of each phrase as it should. 

I assume my suggestion would be simple to implement in the code: reset the speed to slow after a gap. 

[jaypackard_25214]

An even simpler fix would be to replace the Orchestral strings legato sample triggered at the start of phrase with the sustain sample, which has a faster attack.  The other instruments don't the same problem as the orchestral strings.  They should at least be consistent. 

[herb]

I'd like to help you with the example you have posted here:

xxx-xxx-xxx

After each rest you get the double time to the next NOTE ON,

So this should work with speed control very well, if you set the breakpoint of the speedswitch to the right value..

If an x = sixteenth notes, set the speedswitch to a value of 70, now you can perform between 100 and 160 BPM,

and all notes after a rest are triggering an dedicated fast attack articulation.

I've setup in the first cell sustains with fast attack "4 VI-14_sus_noVib_fA"

and the second cell "01 VI-14_perf-legato" (or "01 VI-14_perf-trill_leg" better for faster movements).

Hope this helps.

best

Herb

[jaypackard_25214]

OK, I see how you can do it for this example.  However, I don't believe I can set the speedswitch with my Cubase automation track, so it wouldn't always work when switching to a new rythmic pattern.  Even if I could, it's more work.  I could set up another matrix for another pattern, but this would be so complicated compared to my simple proposal of having the software reset the speed after a gap or changing the initial sample of the strings legato to have a faster attack.

[herb]

Speed control checks just the time between two NOTE ON events, that's all.

Smaller or larger gaps or rests between the NOTE ON events doesn't have any effect,

because everything would become pretty complicated, especially in combination with sustain pedals and

for polyphonic patches. So this solution was never an option for us.

I would recommend to set up two different speed matrices, one for faster and one for slower passages.

best

Herb